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tiatia22
13-05-12, 11:42 PM
Am i right in thinking when you are lifting hair colour, you are looking at the natural pigment eg client is a base 5 wanting a 7/0 . So you look at 5 having red/orange pigment not looking at the 7 underlying pigment??
So if someones a base 5 you will have to counteract the red no matter how light you lift them.
If someones a base 8 wanting a 12/0 you will have to counteract the yellow from the base 8 underlying pigment
If someones a 7 wanting a 9/0 you will have to use blue in your 9 shade.
Am i on the right track, Only went into this on a recent hair course never trained like this when i trained ,many moons ago,lol.:Love:

tiatia22
13-05-12, 11:46 PM
Am i right in thinking when you are lifting hair colour, you are looking at the natural pigment eg client is a base 5 wanting a 7/0 . So you look at 5 having red/orange pigment not looking at the 7 underlying pigment??
So if someones a base 5 you will have to counteract the red no matter how light you lift them.
If someones a base 8 wanting a 12/0 you will have to counteract the yellow from the base 8 underlying pigment
If someones a 7 wanting a 9/0 you will have to use blue in your 9 shade.
Am i on the right track, Only went into this on a recent hair course never trained like this when i trained ,many moons ago,lol.:Love:

Also green is /1 ash in my colour range (Kadus which is like wella)but everyone keeps saying use /0 for green, i thought natural/neutral was a mix of red, blue ,yellow the same as our natural hair??

Lamaur man
14-05-12, 09:21 AM
Am i right in thinking when you are lifting hair colour, you are looking at the natural pigment eg client is a base 5 wanting a 7/0 . So you look at 5 having red/orange pigment not looking at the 7 underlying pigment??
So if someones a base 5 you will have to counteract the red no matter how light you lift them.
If someones a base 8 wanting a 12/0 you will have to counteract the yellow from the base 8 underlying pigment
If someones a 7 wanting a 9/0 you will have to use blue in your 9 shade.
Am i on the right track, Only went into this on a recent hair course never trained like this when i trained ,many moons ago,lol.:Love:





Yes your on the right tracks.
The following is a guide to pigment undertones in natural hair.

level 1 has black/red undertones

level 3 has brown/red undertones

level 4 has red/orange undertones.

level 5 has orange/red undertones.

level 6 has orange/gold undertones.

level 7 has gold/orange undertones.

level 8 has gold/yellow undertones.

level 9 has yellow undertones.

level 9 to level 10 has pale yellow/very pale yellow undertones.


From this you can see that if you wanted to lighten say a level 7 to a level 9 you can choose your level 9 tint with the appropriate tone to neutralize unwanted gold/orange undertones.
As you already know, each color house has slightly different numbers for their neutralizing tones.

ie. Loreal uses -1 for ash/blue and -2 for violet/iridescent.

Schwarzkopf uses -2 for ash/blue and -1 for soft violet/cendre.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 09:35 AM
This is what i thought, until i've seen in The colour book how they explain it. It says base 5 lightened to a 7 The result will be blonde with a yellow/orange undertone.( which is the level 7 undertone) thought it would be red????
client base 5 going to a 3 results in a yellow/orange undertone, this is because she has become artificially two shades darker but her natural undertones has lightened slightly.
base 6 to 9 resulting in a pale yellow undertone??
It saying as if you look at the level there going to and that undertone .
Talk about confusing.

Lamaur man
14-05-12, 09:57 AM
This is what i thought, until i've seen in The colour book how they explain it. It says base 5 lightened to a 7 The result will be blonde with a yellow/orange undertone.( which is the level 7 undertone) thought it would be red????
client base 5 going to a 3 results in a yellow/orange undertone, this is because she has become artificially two shades darker but her natural undertones has lightened slightly.
base 6 to 9 resulting in a pale yellow undertone??
It saying as if you look at the level there going to and that undertone .
Talk about confusing.




yes its confusing sometimes.

Just think that the darker the natural hair color the more red it will contain and the blonder the natural hair color will contain more yellow and less red. Anything in between say level 5 to 7 will have more copper undertones.

snaz
14-05-12, 10:06 AM
Also green is /1 ash in my colour range (Kadus which is like wella)but everyone keeps saying use /0 for green, i thought natural/neutral was a mix of red, blue ,yellow the same as our natural hair??

I spoke to wella regarding the base colors containing green and they said that it's a mixture has you've quoted above!!

So when it came up on here that the base colour would counteract the red in the shades intermixed this was incorrect! The base shade will just tone it down, which this is what I thought it did.

I'm not saying there isnt green to the other brands but in this case it is not present in Wella.

. Hope what ive write make sense lol!! B

Lamaur man
14-05-12, 10:13 AM
I spoke to wella regarding the base colors containing green and they said that it's a mixture has you've quoted above!!

So when it came up on here that the base colour would counteract the red in the shades intermixed this was incorrect! The base shade will just tone it down, which this is what I thought it did.

I'm not saying there isnt green to the other brands but in this case it is not present in Wella.

. Hope what ive write make sense lol!! B




Yes your right.
/2 is green/matt in wella.

They don't seem to have any shades that contain /2 except the special mix tones.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 10:15 AM
I spoke to wella regarding the base colors containing green and they said that it's a mixture has you've quoted above!!

So when it came up on here that the base colour would counteract the red in the shades intermixed this was incorrect! The base shade will just tone it down, which this is what I thought it did.

I'm not saying there isnt green to the other brands but in this case it is not present in Wella.

. Hope what ive write make sense lol!! B
oh many many thanks, I kept thinking maybe i'd got it wrong, couldnt understand people saying use natural/neutral to neutralise red. What are your views on underlying pigment?? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:Love:

tiatia22
14-05-12, 10:36 AM
If anyone can check that it's the starting natural level pigment where looking at not the level we have lifted to (remaining pigment)
eg base 5 to 9
we are considering the red pigment when colouring not the yellow pigment left in the 9.
so we would be using green in our mix when lightening
not the violet to neutralise the yellow,like the official colour book for NVQ level 2 & 3 says. So much conflicting info in hairdressing:sad:

snaz
14-05-12, 11:36 AM
Ok, let me get this straight in my head before I go and ask someone who's a teacher in hair!!
So what your saying is you have a client who's a base 5 wishes to go to 9.
So you are wanting to know are you counteracting the tones which r present in the base 5 or the lifted level 9!!

tiatia22
14-05-12, 11:46 AM
Ok, let me get this straight in my head before I go and ask someone who's a teacher in hair!!
So what your saying is you have a client who's a base 5 wishes to go to 9.
So you are wanting to know are you counteracting the tones which r present in the base 5 or the lifted level 9!!

yes.xxx

snaz
14-05-12, 12:27 PM
From wella!! You look at the underlying tones which you start with ie in this case base 5.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 01:07 PM
From wella!! You look at the underlying tones which you start with ie in this case base 5.

Thanks so much, so it would be the red in the base 5 that i would have to neutralise when lightening.Thats great. I use Kadus and have a rep but he's not a hairdresser and cant answer any colouring questions.That's the problem with not being with a big company. But i've been told proctor and gamble are taking them over and think they own wella so might get better support.thanks for your help, so kind of you.xxx:Love:

snaz
14-05-12, 01:19 PM
Yes red/orange so Green/blue to neutralise . I'm still learning new things every day and helping others also helps me!!! B

tiatia22
14-05-12, 02:42 PM
Thanks, it doesnt help aswell when different underlying pigments alter with who you train with some have 5/0 at a red undertone some say red/orange,some say base 5 is orange. lol it's enough to turn you mad.xx:Love:

dee
14-05-12, 02:47 PM
one tip i once got from a course from a fab colorist was .. she never looked at the color of hair as such she always viewed it as being the relevent undertone (red , orange etc.. ) she said it helped her get into her head the info needed to either accent or neutralise the tones x

persianista
14-05-12, 05:28 PM
If you were lifting from a 5 to a 9, it would be the gold in the 9 you had to counter. There would be no red present in a level 9. If you put a green tone on, you would have jungle blonde.

It is the underlying tone in the lightened colour you counter, not the starting colour. That is assuming of course that you lift it sufficiently.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 06:20 PM
If you were lifting from a 5 to a 9, it would be the gold in the 9 you had to counter. There would be no red present in a level 9. If you put a green tone on, you would have jungle blonde.

It is the underlying tone in the lightened colour you counter, not the starting colour. That is assuming of course that you lift it sufficiently.

Now i'm really confused, spent the day looking into this and everyone says you have to look at the natural underlying pigments in the clients base colour so you know what to neutralise.Except the colour book that says look at the target colour pigment left.
eg base 5 -9
I would of used 9/1 (green ash) to colour it
but colour book saying it's the yellow that will shine through,so that's the 9 underlying pigments there referring too.
One of the geeks even asked their hairdressing trainer and they said you would be considering the red/orange pigment from the base 5, when mixing the colour.Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:sad:

Perry_Althair
14-05-12, 06:30 PM
Now i'm really confused, spent the day looking into this and everyone says you have to look at the natural underlying pigments in the clients base colour so you know what to neutralise.Except the colour book that says look at the target colour pigment left.
eg base 5 -9
I would of used 9/1 (green ash) to colour it
but colour book saying it's the yellow that will shine through,so that's the 9 underlying pigments there referring too.
One of the geeks even asked their hairdressing trainer and they said you would be considering the red/orange pigment from the base 5, when mixing the colour.Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:sad:

I would say, but not 100% sure...

When lifting using a tint/highlift or highlighting system such as spectrum (affinage) graphics (matrix), you would counter the undertone of the original base.

When toning after lifting with prelightener, you would counter the tone of the base you have lifted to.

I think this is why you're getting 2 different answers as there are 2 different scenarios...could be wrong but this is how I work :)

persianista
14-05-12, 06:31 PM
The colour book, and me, are correct. I promise.

Think about it. Blue is present in black hair, if you bleached it, would that blue be present? No.
If you bleached base 5, would it be red? No, it would be yellow. You would counter the yellow with a violet ash. Green ash over yellow would be nappy khaki.

As long as you create the right amount of lift, you counter the undertone at the level that you reach, not the level you started with.

Eg, if you lifted base 3 to base 5, you would need to counter red as a base 5 would show red undertone.
Base 9 could never hold red. At worst it would throw out a strong gold.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 06:43 PM
The colour book, and me, are correct. I promise.

Think about it. Blue is present in black hair, if you bleached it, would that blue be present? No.
If you bleached base 5, would it be red? No, it would be yellow. You would counter the yellow with a violet ash. Green ash over yellow would be nappy khaki.

As long as you create the right amount of lift, you counter the undertone at the level that you reach, not the level you started with.

Eg, if you lifted base 3 to base 5, you would need to counter red as a base 5 would show red undertone.
Base 9 could never hold red. At worst it would throw out a strong gold.

So are you saying all hair that is coloured to a 6 you have to neutralise the orange ,if they wanted a natural shade, no matter what their base was. so all 6's would have a 6/1 ash
all clients that have a 9 you would be using violet on to neutralise the yellow from the 9. so all have a 9/16 violet tone???
I know when bleaching you use the corresponding tone afterwards depending on the warmth left, but i didn't think that applied to tint.
Everyone says so hard to lift a 5 to a 9 cos of all the red ??? ( which is the natural shade before colouring)

donna hair
14-05-12, 06:46 PM
I always in for the undertone in the colour you aiming for.

Eg if someone was a natural 6.3 wanting a 9.3 I'd use a 9.0 so i don't add more gold.

If you based it on natural hairs undertone them you'd be using ash on most peoples hair.

I only really use ash for toning and colour corrections.

If you put a full head ash on wouldn't it look like when you see someone who has gone from blonde to dark brown without pre pigging?

tiatia22
14-05-12, 06:48 PM
The colour book, and me, are correct. I promise.

Think about it. Blue is present in black hair, if you bleached it, would that blue be present? No.
If you bleached base 5, would it be red? No, it would be yellow. You would counter the yellow with a violet ash. Green ash over yellow would be nappy khaki.

As long as you create the right amount of lift, you counter the undertone at the level that you reach, not the level you started with.

Eg, if you lifted base 3 to base 5, you would need to counter red as a base 5 would show red undertone.
Base 9 could never hold red. At worst it would throw out a strong gold.
Persianista- how would you mix a colour for a base 5 to a base natural 9 (no warmth wanted) are you saying you would be using violet?? dont know what to think been on rusk handbook of colours and alsorts of site and all of them say it's the starting base pigment that we've to neutralise.x:Scared:

persianista
14-05-12, 06:53 PM
To lift a 5 to a 9, realistically you would need to use a highlift tint. I would use an ash violet.
If you just used 9 with 30 you would get an orangey 8 at best.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 06:54 PM
The colour book, and me, are correct. I promise.

Think about it. Blue is present in black hair, if you bleached it, would that blue be present? No.
If you bleached base 5, would it be red? No, it would be yellow. You would counter the yellow with a violet ash. Green ash over yellow would be nappy khaki.

As long as you create the right amount of lift, you counter the undertone at the level that you reach, not the level you started with.

Eg, if you lifted base 3 to base 5, you would need to counter red as a base 5 would show red undertone.
Base 9 could never hold red. At worst it would throw out a strong gold.

I'm not meaning toning after colour,i wouldn't be putting green over yellow after it's coloured. i'm meaning ammending target colour to neutralise underlying pigment.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 06:56 PM
one tip i once got from a course from a fab colorist was .. she never looked at the color of hair as such she always viewed it as being the relevent undertone (red , orange etc.. ) she said it helped her get into her head the info needed to either accent or neutralise the tones x
Dee, was she looking at the natural pigment of their base or what colour they were lifting too?? xx

tiatia22
14-05-12, 07:03 PM
Lol, i wont be sleeping tonight , need to get my head around it.why is there so much conflicting advice.
So if where lifting a 4-6 we would be using a 6 blue ash to counteract the orange, not a green ash to counteract the red in the 4? is that correct.xx:Love:

persianista
14-05-12, 07:16 PM
Lol, i wont be sleeping tonight , need to get my head around it.why is there so much conflicting advice.
So if where lifting a 4-6 we would be using a 6 blue ash to counteract the orange, not a green ash to counteract the red in the 4? is that correct.xx:Love:

Yup, correct. You got it:):)

chazz!!
14-05-12, 07:50 PM
Yup, correct. You got it:):)

persianista i think you should hold an evening training class at you salon i would pay to come for some theory lessons. X

Sent from my GT-P1000 using SalonGeek

Perry_Althair
14-05-12, 08:22 PM
Yup, correct. You got it:):)

This doesn't really make sense to me if this is meant to apply to all colour brands as when using spectrum, and I know its the same for matrix, you'd use green when lifting a base with a red undertone, blue when lifting from an orange undertone and violet with lifting from yellow so I'm so confused!

tiatia22
14-05-12, 08:25 PM
This doesn't really make sense to me if this is meant to apply to all colour brands as when using spectrum, and I know its the same for matrix, you'd use green when lifting a base with a red undertone, blue when lifting from an orange undertone and violet with lifting from yellow so I'm so confused!
Ha , your not the only one, i've asked same question on another hair forum, and the main man who is very very experienced has agreed with the lady that said it's the target shades underlying pigment that we need to neutralise. x:Scared:

donna hair
14-05-12, 08:32 PM
This doesn't really make sense to me if this is meant to apply to all colour brands as when using spectrum, and I know its the same for matrix, you'd use green when lifting a base with a red undertone, blue when lifting from an orange undertone and violet with lifting from yellow so I'm so confused!

Is spectrum like a bleach? So you're toning at the same time?

If it is them won't that work by killing the undertone, then lift the hair rather then tone it afterwards.

I've not used spectrum so not too sure x

snaz
14-05-12, 08:32 PM
I'm confused too!! For instance I am a base 6/7. Undertones or orange/yellow. I use Highlift tint with 12%. So you says 12 undertones are pale yellow so voilet would be used to counteract. But why does this not work not work on my hair then, I'm left brassy!!
But if I use the 12 line with a colour which counteract the undertones at base 6/7 which would be green/blue I am left with a cooler blonde not brassy???

I asked wella technical help line and it was then who said it was the base under tone not target!!!

Perry_Althair
14-05-12, 09:54 PM
I'm confused too!! For instance I am a base 6/7. Undertones or orange/yellow. I use Highlift tint with 12%. So you says 12 undertones are pale yellow so voilet would be used to counteract. But why does this not work not work on my hair then, I'm left brassy!!
But if I use the 12 line with a colour which counteract the undertones at base 6/7 which would be green/blue I am left with a cooler blonde not brassy???

I asked wella technical help line and it was then who said it was the base under tone not target!!!

this is what ive just been thinking....if this is so, and you take into account the liften undertone then why would tints exists like a highlift with a blue tone because surely you'd never use it, and a base 9 with a blue or a green undertone...if that makes sense? lol

boobaloo
14-05-12, 10:14 PM
My understanding is also counteracting the original colours undertone, so yes red and neutralising with green. I have been on lots of colour correction courses and would like to think I am quite knowledgeable when it comes to colour. I've been doing it for 17 yrs. I've been on another course only today and this was again exactly the way they were teaching it.
If Persianista is correct, I will be baffled.
I think there are lots of people confused by undertones. Some people also think that if you are Toning a
Blonde with yellow and orange undertone and you use A/V toner it will go green?! Their thinking is that yellow + blue = green. It doesn't work like that they will neutralise the yellow/orange tones. Ob depending on whether your ash is green or blue based. The only time you would expect a green result is if your undertone is incorrect for the level ie too dark.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 10:15 PM
just seen on another site explaining undertones.
If colouring level 3 to a 6 you need to consider the strong red/orange pigments?? (wont that be the 3 )
doesnt help when underlying tones are different in books, internet, hairdressing sites, i have seen 4 as red/orange
then a 4 at red/violet, then a 4 as red???????????????
which is correct for Wella colours.

tiatia22
14-05-12, 10:45 PM
If you want a natural result, start by determining your natural shade/level. Remember that you may only be able to lighten up to two shades with store bought colours (bleach is different). If you are a level 6 (light brown) and you want to be a level 8 (blonde) with a natural result, look at what unwanted pigment level 8 will throw (gold). So you would choose a level 8 colour with an ash tone eg. ash blonde. The ash in the colour will counteract the gold and leave you with a true natural 8 level.

If you are a level 8 (blonde) and want to be a level 10 (lightest blonde) with a natural result, look at what the unwanted pigment level 10 will throw (yellow). So you would choose a level 10 colour with a violet tone eg. lightest ash blonde. The higher the level, the less counteracting pigment it contains, so even though it may say ash, a level 10 ash is more violet and isn't as strong as a level 8 ash.

If you are a level 4 (dark brown) and want to be a level 6 (dark blonde) with a natural result, look at what the unwanted pigment level 6 will throw (orange). So you would choose a level 6 colour with an ash tone. At a level 6, the ash is quite strong and will counteract the unwanted orange tones.
just found this, oh dear need to change my ways.xx

LAPirate
14-05-12, 10:56 PM
I agree with Persianista. Think we are confusing our theory a little, let me see if I can help!!??
We need to separate out all the products.
When using a highlift tint this product is designed to lift and tone and does not have a balancing base tone so you need to using the corresponding ash tone to your underlying warm tone. (green/red, blue/orange and violet/yellow. the same can be said of affinage spectrum and matrix colour graphics it was also the same with sun glitz powder lighteners that I used many moons ago!
When using a non hilift tint these have a balanced base tone so compensate when you are achieving the desired and achievable lift, you therefore have to compensate for the undercoat at your target shade.

In reality you will not achieve a satisfactory liftof more than 3 levels using a non hilift tint as the tones are harder to control.

The red undertone of a base 4 is in a base 4 not the successfully lightened 4-7 which would have an orange undertone.

May be a bit of a jumble, sorry, I have just finished a thirteen hour day!

;)

boobaloo
14-05-12, 11:00 PM
I agree with Persianista. Think we are confusing our theory a little, let me see if I can help!!??
We need to separate out all the products.
When using a highlift tint this product is designed to lift and tone and does not have a balancing base tone so you need to using the corresponding ash tone to your underlying warm tone. (green/red, blue/orange and violet/yellow. the same can be said of affinage spectrum and matrix colour graphics it was also the same with sun glitz powder lighteners that I used many moons ago!
When using a non hilift tint these have a balanced base tone so compensate when you are achieving the desired and achievable lift, you therefore have to compensate for the undercoat at your target shade.

In reality you will not achieve a satisfactory liftof more than 3 levels using a non hilift tint as the tones are harder to control.

The red undertone of a base 4 is in a base 4 not the successfully lightened 4-7 which would have an orange undertone.

May be a bit of a jumble, sorry, I have just finished a thirteen hour day!

;)


Thank you! Yes this makes far more sense. I think it is all getting confused! I was also talking graphics. :)

LAPirate
14-05-12, 11:02 PM
Thank you! Yes this makes far more sense. I think it is all getting confused! I was also talking graphics. :)

Haha glad it does make sense! My heads a jumble! ;)

boobaloo
14-05-12, 11:07 PM
Haha glad it does make sense! My heads a jumble! ;)

I think you hit the nail on the head by saying its not a simple answer there are several depending on the product. As you say when using a colour you generally only lift a couple of shades and they are pre adjusted to counteract the undertones anyway.

Highlifts and graphics etc work differently :)

tiatia22
14-05-12, 11:40 PM
thankyou , so with highlift look at the starting base underlying pigments
eg 6 orange so use 12/1 blue ash
with tints 6-9 you would use 9/16 ash violet for the warmth from the 9 the target shade.
think i understand it.
is this right for a wella user for underlying pigments.
5-red
6-red/orange
7-orange
8- yellow/orange
9-yellow
10- pale yellow
:Dxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Perry_Althair
15-05-12, 12:06 AM
I agree with Persianista. Think we are confusing our theory a little, let me see if I can help!!??
We need to separate out all the products.
When using a highlift tint this product is designed to lift and tone and does not have a balancing base tone so you need to using the corresponding ash tone to your underlying warm tone. (green/red, blue/orange and violet/yellow. the same can be said of affinage spectrum and matrix colour graphics it was also the same with sun glitz powder lighteners that I used many moons ago!
When using a non hilift tint these have a balanced base tone so compensate when you are achieving the desired and achievable lift, you therefore have to compensate for the undercoat at your target shade.

In reality you will not achieve a satisfactory liftof more than 3 levels using a non hilift tint as the tones are harder to control.

The red undertone of a base 4 is in a base 4 not the successfully lightened 4-7 which would have an orange undertone.

May be a bit of a jumble, sorry, I have just finished a thirteen hour day!

;)

Yep I understand now lol, still dont really get why you would have a green ash on a tint higher than a 6 though bearing in mind what you've said lol

tiatia22
15-05-12, 10:35 AM
Yep I understand now lol, still dont really get why you would have a green ash on a tint higher than a 6 though bearing in mind what you've said lol
maybe it's for someone who has had a red colour and wants the red neutralising.xx:green:

snaz
15-05-12, 12:15 PM
Tiatia22 I've actually read the same thread has what you put in here, great mind think alike lol!!

I think that I am getting to grips with it too now, so with tint it's the target shade underlying pigment and with Highlift it's the base you start with.. Am i right???

I think with coloring is trial and error specially with blondes, cause you can put one colour on one client with the same base as another and use same shade and it will come out different!!

I'm glad it was me who just didn't get confused!! Lol

tiatia22
15-05-12, 01:33 PM
Tiatia22 I've actually read the same thread has what you put in here, great mind think alike lol!!

I think that I am getting to grips with it too now, so with tint it's the target shade underlying pigment and with Highlift it's the base you start with.. Am i right???

I think with coloring is trial and error specially with blondes, cause you can put one colour on one client with the same base as another and use same shade and it will come out different!!

I'm glad it was me who just didn't get confused!! Lol

No i think quite a few thought the same as us,last year alone i went on kadus colouring course also Fudge, Matrix, Joico, lol, trying them all out.And not one trainer went in to detail about underlying pigment, they mentioned it and showed the red, orange,yellow, but failed to mention it was target pigment to look for not natural starting shade, because they call it natural underlying pigments makes you think the clients own natural pigment at the shade they are.Glad i mentioned it on here though, lol, as i would of never known.xx:irked:

tiatia22
15-05-12, 01:35 PM
Tiatia22 I've actually read the same thread has what you put in here, great mind think alike lol!!

I think that I am getting to grips with it too now, so with tint it's the target shade underlying pigment and with Highlift it's the base you start with.. Am i right???

I think with coloring is trial and error specially with blondes, cause you can put one colour on one client with the same base as another and use same shade and it will come out different!!

I'm glad it was me who just didn't get confused!! Lol

It's a bit of a devil when Wella tec get it wrong too, ha ha .

dee
15-05-12, 02:05 PM
No i think quite a few thought the same as us,last year alone i went on kadus colouring course also Fudge, Matrix, Joico, lol, trying them all out.And not one trainer went in to detail about underlying pigment, they mentioned it and showed the red, orange,yellow, but failed to mention it was target pigment to look for not natural starting shade, because they call it natural underlying pigments makes you think the clients own natural pigment at the shade they are.Glad i mentioned it on here though, lol, as i would of never known.xx:irked:

yep i have noticed this too .. i quizzed one of the teachers and i think its basically so you go do your masters with whichever brand you use .. then you learn all the extra stuff ..

persianista
15-05-12, 02:17 PM
Yep I understand now lol, still dont really get why you would have a green ash on a tint higher than a 6 though bearing in mind what you've said lol

Titian can be up to level 8, thats why you have green ash at level 7 or 8, to get a flat colour at that level.

Ok, good way to explain this. Say you have a bit of black hair, and you bleach it to blonde. The hair would pass through the following tones at the following levels:
1-2 blue
3-5 red
6-7 orange
8-10 yellow.

At that level 9 you would be faced with a yellow piment that you would need to correct. Opposite on the wheel is violet, so you would use that.
If you stopped it at level 6, you would get an orange pigment, so you would use a blue ash.
Stop it at 5 you need a green ash to get a flat 5 etc etc

This idea that it works on the starting colour of the hair is wrong. The exception is of course when you are colouring darker, the tones to prepig with are the tones present in the level you are darkening to, and all those between.
EG, you got bleched white hair, to darken to an 8 you need to add gold.
To darken to a 6 you need to add coppergold.
To darken to a 5, you need to add red, copper and gold.


Now sit back and wait for someone to say WRONG!!!!

classixuk
15-05-12, 02:44 PM
Persianista has this spot on.

For what it's worth I teach the VRQ Level 4 Advanced Hair Colour Theory Courses too.

A few points were raised in this thread that I hope I can help with:

1. Why would you need a level 9 tint with anything except violet if the underlying pigment will always be gold? Because hair colour is individual - your aim is not to make everyone a 'flat level 9', but to decide if you'd like to enhance or neutralise the NRP (natural remaining pigment). If you want to enhance the NRP at level 9 (which is yellow) you can choose level 9 colours with gold tones or copper tones (such as 9.3). If you want to neutralise you would choose level 9 with violet. If you want to cool it down you would choose level 9 with ash.

2. Why do I need a highlift tint with ash to prevent my level 6 hair looking brassy - when I use violet it is still warm? Because highlift tint is not like bleach - it doesn't keep lifting the longer and longer you leave it on. Highlift tint might claim to lift upto 4 levels, but that doesn't mean 4 levels on everyone's hair type - you need to think about your hair-type, texture and tenacity when colouring and not just NRP.
Level 6 hair that is poker straight, thick and tenacious will be more difficult to lift than wavy, very fine hair purely due to the amount of product required to get through the cuticle and saturate the cortex. After 45 minutes on the more tenacious hair you would probably find that the hair has lifted only 2 true levels (leaving behind a yellow orange NRP). On the fine hair you will find it has lifted 4 levels (leaving behind a pale yellow NRP).
When we bleach hair we take this for granted - checking every 10 minutes. A highlift tint is basically a bleach with toner built in. Also, remember that placing highlift tint under heat opens the cuticle (allowing faster lightening) but also makes the colour formula more acidic (making it harder to tone successfully after the lift is achieved) - so sometimes, patience is key.

3. Why do they have green tones is the likes of Spectrum/Graphics etc? Similar reasons to the above really. Graphics is advertised as lifting through to blonde in just 12 minutes under heat. In reality it lifts as much as it can in 12 minutes and relies on you choosing the right pigment to "correct whatever is left". On level 5 tenacious hair Graphics lifts to anywhere between a 7 and 8 in 12 minutes. The NRP is orange towards orange/yellow.
That's why you would use - GREEN - for the best results.
WTF? Did he just say GREEN? Why not 'blue' or even 'blue and violet'?
LOL.
Sorry to confuse you. Think about what colours make up green - blue and yellow right?
OK, so the Graphics has lifted all of the hair strand to somewhere between a level 7 and level 8 (i.e. orange and orangey yellow) - but it's not even though. The ends might be a level 7 (orange, maybe even a little bit orangey red in places) and other areas might be an orangey yellow (just like when you bleach hair in one go).
Where the hair is orange, it will absorb the blue pigment from the green toner, leaving behind the gold reflect - hence making a 7.03 (rather than a flat 7.0). Where the hair is orange/yellow it will absorb less of the blue pigment from the green toner, leaving just enough behind to slightly cool the yellow pigment, thus making a 7.03 result on the midlengths too.
This is why if you look at a Graphics shade chart all of the "green" examples look like a golden result when used on level 5 hair.
If you had used the blue pigment on level 5 instead of the green you would have ended up with an uneven result (roots looking lighter than the ends).


Hope the above clears things up and helped to answer some of the questions raised. :)

tiatia22
15-05-12, 02:51 PM
Titian can be up to level 8, thats why you have green ash at level 7 or 8, to get a flat colour at that level.

Ok, good way to explain this. Say you have a bit of black hair, and you bleach it to blonde. The hair would pass through the following tones at the following levels:
1-2 blue
3-5 red
6-7 orange
8-10 yellow.

At that level 9 you would be faced with a yellow piment that you would need to correct. Opposite on the wheel is violet, so you would use that.
If you stopped it at level 6, you would get an orange pigment, so you would use a blue ash.
Stop it at 5 you need a green ash to get a flat 5 etc etc

This idea that it works on the starting colour of the hair is wrong. The exception is of course when you are colouring darker, the tones to prepig with are the tones present in the level you are darkening to, and all those between.
EG, you got bleched white hair, to darken to an 8 you need to add gold.
To darken to a 6 you need to add coppergold.
To darken to a 5, you need to add red, copper and gold.


Now sit back and wait for someone to say WRONG!!!!
ha ha ,i believe you. When doing high lift though, do you look at starting base pigments then,as stated earlier.
if someone is having a highlift and their a base 7 would you use 12/1 because of the orange in the 7??
Also do you know why when i colour a 5 or 6 on white hair it goes a golden cast, i've tried with some ash in ,tried 20 vol, 15vol,10 vol, but it's still too warm, clients were originally very dark before they went white, could they still have hidden underlying pigment in there. thanks sweetie.xx:green:

classixuk
15-05-12, 02:52 PM
Just to add - you don't need to remember your NRP if you just accept that hair colouring follows the rules of nature that exist all around us.

Every day when the sun rises the sky turns from blue/black of night to light gold of the midday sun - but it does it in stages. The horizon (or sun) appears to turn dark red, lighter red, red orange, orange, orange/gold, gold, light gold.

And at sunset (i.e. client going darker) it does the same in reverse.

NRP works just like the sun rising and setting. It never changes.

xx

tiatia22
15-05-12, 03:36 PM
Confusing or what!!!B]2. Underlying Pigment - Use it or Lose it?[/B]

Let's say your client is a natural level 6 and their desired color is a level 9 ash. The underlying pigment of a level 6 is red-orange, so in this case you will have to 'loose' the red-orange pigment. If your client wants a desired color that is warm, then you could 'use' the underlying pigment in your favor.
make no wonder where confused ,just found this now on 10 steps to perfect hair.

snaz
15-05-12, 03:45 PM
Well I don't know who to believe lol!! This is a second email from wella and they are still saying its the clients base underlying tones. Think it's a case of trying it both ways and see which works best!!

Dear Nicola,

Thank you for your recent email.

I am unsure of which books or media you are using for reference but I have stated previous the way in which Wella Professionals teach neutralising undertones.

When you are lifting natural hair, regardless of the depth you are wishing to achieve, you always use a counteracting tone to neutralise the clients natural depth if they do not want any warmth to be apparent.

If a client is a natural depth 7 the undertone will always be a yellow/orange, therefore if you are lifting natural hair you must take into consideration warmth is going to be exposed and use a violet or blue ash tone to help counteract depending on the desired shade the client wants.

The counteracting tone is not decided on the underlying warmth of the colours depth you are looking to achieve. It is based on the underlying tone of the natural hair.

snaz
15-05-12, 04:20 PM
Ok can't both party's be right??

If you are to neutralise the undertones at say base 7 you would be using a blue/violet so all unwanted tones will be removed as it was being lifting.

But also if the hair was lifted to a 10 you would use violet so violet wouldn't work on the underlying pigment present at the clients natural base (7 orange/yellow) but has the colour is lifted to the yellow at this time the violet will kick in and work counteracting the yellow!

Just a thought, then this would be the answer to various sites contradicting each other!!!

tiatia22
15-05-12, 04:29 PM
Ok can't both party's be right??

If you are to neutralise the undertones at say base 7 you would be using a blue/violet so all unwanted tones will be removed as it was being lifting.

But also if the hair was lifted to a 10 you would use violet so violet wouldn't work on the underlying pigment present at the clients natural base (7 orange/yellow) but has the colour is lifted to the yellow at this time the violet will kick in and work counteracting the yellow!

Just a thought, then this would be the answer to various sites contradicting each other!!!
oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I could cry, spent 2 days on this and have been told both ways:irked::irked::irked::mad::cry::cry::cry:

snaz
15-05-12, 04:34 PM
oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I could cry, spent 2 days on this and have been told both ways:irked::irked::irked::mad::cry::cry::cry:

I'm not saying that it can be done both ways ? I could be wrong , after all I have only just gone back into colouring!! And it's making my head a shed to lol!! But it seem feasible don't you think!!

tiatia22
15-05-12, 04:46 PM
This is from another hairdressing site, the guy who is in charge of the site, and excellent hairdresser, these are his views


You have to consider the underlying pigment of the level you are lifting to, not from.

So if you are at a level 9 the you take that underlying pigment into consideration, not the level 5 you are pulling from.

Most color lines compensate for this within their formulas, so a level 9 ash isn't going to do much for a level 5 underlying pigment:hug: oh help:cry:

tiatia22
15-05-12, 06:15 PM
How Hair Is Lightened

http://www.hairboutique.com/tips/Farouk-50_250h.jpg [CENTER
[/CENTER]

Since it has been established that the 'new' color is a combination of your old color level and tone (referred to as our 'base' color) and the new color that is deposited into the hair, you must take into account what happens when you lighten or lift the base color to another level and deposit the new pigments into the hair shaft.
When hair is lightened it goes through several stages of lightening from the darkest to the lightest from a base of blue in the case of natural black to pale blonde with the palest of yellow as its base color.
This lightening process fractures the color pigment creating undertones that are unwanted.

This says creating so you would think that was at target colour, not starting base colour. might just be a lollipop lady.:irked:

classixuk
15-05-12, 07:27 PM
Hope this helps (a picture of our shade chart explains it perfectly ... Look at the top right corner) xx

LAPirate
15-05-12, 07:35 PM
Think about it this way ;
If you were colour removing on a client who had been tinted black and you were left with a red undercoat would you be thinking about using a base 7 ash?? No because an ash on base 7 wouldn't be man enough to neutralise it! If you are lifting with a tint it will always lift thought the levels first before depositing fully! ;)

Perry_Althair
15-05-12, 07:58 PM
my poor brain :(

classixuk
15-05-12, 08:14 PM
my poor brain :(

LOL.

Shall we take it back to basics for a sec ... even I got confused reading the thread back.

OK...

Step 1 - Peroxide lightens hair. When it lightens hair it reveals the 'natural underlying pigment' in the hair. 10 Vol lifts 1 level, 20 Vol 2 levels and so on.

So therefore, if a client has a natural base of level 5 and you apply 20 vol peroxide it will lift her hair 2 levels - to a level 7 and reveal an orange 'natural underlying pigment'.

Step 2 - Clients don't usually like how this looks so you can mix something called tint with the peroxide and it 'colours over' the orange. Whether you mix a red level 7 or a blue level 7 or even an orange level 7, the result you get is always the 'Natural Underlying Pigment + the tint you selected' = Finished result.

examples : Client has natural base 5 and you use 20 vol on her hair.
Gold Level 7 tint + Orange undercoat = Golden copper level 7 result.
Blue Level 7 tint + Orange undercoat = Neutral Level 7 result.
Orange Level 7 tint + Orange undercoat = Intense Copper Level 7 result.

If you mixed any of those tints with 30 vol you would get a different result because the 'natural underlying pigment' would have been lifted one level lighter (to level 8 - yellow/orange).

That's it in a nutshell.

Peroxide lifts and reveals the natural underlying pigment, and the tint deposits colour molecules that can either enhance or neutralise the result you got.

:)

tiatia22
15-05-12, 08:38 PM
Hope this helps (a picture of our shade chart explains it perfectly ... Look at the top right corner) xx
i would of loved to have seen this, but even at 400% i cant read it, it goes all fuzzy, but thanks for trying,xx:D

classixuk
15-05-12, 08:44 PM
i would of loved to have seen this, but even at 400% i cant read it, it goes all fuzzy, but thanks for trying,xx:D

bugger! hang on ... brb

classixuk
15-05-12, 08:45 PM
Did it work?

classixuk
15-05-12, 08:46 PM
Seems to be working OK now (I uploaded the small version by mistake earlier) :o

tiatia22
15-05-12, 08:56 PM
Seems to be working OK now (I uploaded the small version by mistake earlier) :o

Oh thanks, thats put my mind at rest. xx:D

classixuk
15-05-12, 10:49 PM
Oh thanks, thats put my mind at rest. xx:D

My pleasure.

I think it's easier for me as NONE of my colours are pre-made. We're an Aveda salon and they only do bases and pure tones.

If I want a level 7 with gold, I have to grab a tube of 7N and then work out what tones to add as well as which undercoat I would be neutralising (formula for that by the way would be 40grams 7N 8grams Light Yellow Orange 4grams Light Blue Violet and 8G Light Natural Natural (if also covering grey).

I don't get to just go to a cupboard and mix a 7.3 with 20vol and see what happens LOL. xx

tiatia22
15-05-12, 10:57 PM
My pleasure.

I think it's easier for me as NONE of my colours are pre-made. We're an Aveda salon and they only do bases and pure tones.

If I want a level 7 with gold, I have to grab a tube of 7N and then work out what tones to add as well as which undercoat I would be neutralising (formula for that by the way would be 40grams 7N 8grams Light Yellow Orange 4grams Light Blue Violet and 8G Light Natural Natural (if also covering grey).

I don't get to just go to a cupboard and mix a 7.3 with 20vol and see what happens LOL. xx
bloodyhell you've got patience, id be rocking in a chair some where if i had to do all that.lol.x can i please ask about the high lift rules regarding undertones? and why it glows orange when i colour white hair a 5 or 6 base, pretty please.xx:sad:

classixuk
15-05-12, 11:01 PM
bloodyhell you've got patience, id be rocking in a chair some where if i had to do all that.lol.x can i please ask about the high lift rules regarding undertones? and why it glows orange when i colour white hair a 5 or 6 base, pretty please.xx:sad:

Sure. Which line are you using?

Also, do you use the double naturals when covering grey (usually labelled .00 or sometimes 66/00? Give an example of a client (% white, what you mixed it with and how long developed). I'm sure we could give it a go xx

dee
15-05-12, 11:12 PM
My pleasure.

I think it's easier for me as NONE of my colours are pre-made. We're an Aveda salon and they only do bases and pure tones.

If I want a level 7 with gold, I have to grab a tube of 7N and then work out what tones to add as well as which undercoat I would be neutralising (formula for that by the way would be 40grams 7N 8grams Light Yellow Orange 4grams Light Blue Violet and 8G Light Natural Natural (if also covering grey).

I don't get to just go to a cupboard and mix a 7.3 with 20vol and see what happens LOL. xx

i am sooo glad i dont use aveda .. kudos to you , i know its an excellent line but i couldnt cope with that , lol

tiatia22
15-05-12, 11:17 PM
Sure. Which line are you using?

Also, do you use the double naturals when covering grey (usually labelled .00 or sometimes 66/00? Give an example of a client (% white, what you mixed it with and how long developed). I'm sure we could give it a go xx
aww thanks so much for sharing.i trained years ago and so much has changed.
a fellow geek on here was saying highlifts you have to look at the natural starting base as they lift and tone, so if you coloured a level 7 you would use 12/1 blue ash,Yes???
white hair coloured between 5 and 7 leaves a golden hue, used with 20 vol. then tried 15 vol and 10 vol lower peroxides showed less golden ,but were a bit translucant. my hubbys always goes golden on white areas i mix 5/0 and 6/1 20 vol and lower, still has warmth in. tried /00 there a bit better but still that slight glow in the light, can white hair have hidden pigment in.All clients it happens to were naturally very dark bases.

classixuk
15-05-12, 11:32 PM
i am sooo glad i dont use aveda .. kudos to you , i know its an excellent line but i couldnt cope with that , lol

It certainly makes things interesting on a colour correction that's for sure! Results really are amazing though, and the creativity it allows is second to none xx :)

dee
15-05-12, 11:36 PM
no doubt , i sit in awe when i see master colorists do their thing , i was gonna do the aveda course in toronto but i chickened out , lol will stick to matrix for now till i have everything to do with coloring stuck there in my head , lol

boobaloo
15-05-12, 11:51 PM
my poor brain :(

I totally agree! Mine too :)

classixuk
16-05-12, 12:00 AM
aww thanks so much for sharing.i trained years ago and so much has changed.
a fellow geek on here was saying highlifts you have to look at the natural starting base as they lift and tone, so if you coloured a level 7 you would use 12/1 blue ash,Yes???
white hair coloured between 5 and 7 leaves a golden hue, used with 20 vol. then tried 15 vol and 10 vol lower peroxides showed less golden ,but were a bit translucant. my hubbys always goes golden on white areas i mix 5/0 and 6/1 20 vol and lower, still has warmth in. tried /00 there a bit better but still that slight glow in the light, can white hair have hidden pigment in.All clients it happens to were naturally very dark bases.

12/1 - so you're a Wella girl I am guessing?

If you think of a highlift tint as a level 10 tint with a sprinkling of bleach in it (that's not how they're made by the way, but the chemical make-up is very similar) you start understanding them a bit more. So let's call it "10 and half point 1" instead of "12.1" - after all, there is nothing lighter than a base 10, right?

On some clients with a natural level 7 hair you could apply a regular 10.1 and it would be beautiful. On others, it would go 'warm' - yet they both start off with exactly the same undercoat, so therefore, relying on the natural undercoat alone doesn't make sense. You are far better thinking about the undercoat you need to lift to in order to achieve the best results (even with highlift tint) and go from there.

Check the hair type, texture and tenacity for an indication of how difficult it will be to remove the natural underlying pigment and you'll be OK. If you don't do this, you may as well just apply 12/1 to every new level 6 client and hope for the best - never knowing exactly what you'll get ("will it be brassy / will it be OK?"). Some of my colour bills are 200+ so I couldn't get away with that, hence checking the the 3T's (Type, Texture and Tenacity) at the start of the service help me decide if I need to bleach and tone or if a hi-lift tint will be satisfactory.

Everytime I do that though, I am thinking about what it will take to get a pale yellow undercoat and whether I want to enhance or neutralise it when I get there - wherever I'm starting from. Hope that helps a bit.

Regarding the grey/white problem - some people's "white hair" isn't truly white at all. It still contains very small amounts of pheomelanin is some instances (usually in people who previously had very dark hair) and is undetectable to the naked eye. Their eyebrows usually give a clue - do they have the odd dark hair mixed in? If so, the chances are that their hair will contain pheomelanin in small amounts (especially if they are under the age of 65), and this can be oxidised with peroxide and tint. The best way around it is to colour as usual using a double natural base and then around 5 minutes before removal mix an ash colour at the same level with warm water and apply over the top of the colour - it will only be absorbed by the warm pigment and rejected by the artificial hair pigment.

The other things working against you are environmental factors (smoking etc) and one which many people forget - the colour pigments used in shampoo, styling products and conditioners - such as waxes which are yellow in colour, or cream coloured shampoos. These can build up on the hair and produce a 'brassy cast' too.

Hope that helps.

xx

tiatia22
16-05-12, 12:07 AM
12/1 - so you're a Wella girl I am guessing?

If you think of a highlift tint as a level 10 tint with a sprinkling of bleach in it (that's not how they're made by the way, but the chemical make-up is very similar) you start understanding them a bit more. So let's call it "10 and half point 1" instead of "12.1" - after all, there is nothing lighter than a base 10, right?

On some clients with a natural level 7 hair you could apply a regular 10.1 and it would be beautiful. On others, it would go 'warm' - yet they both start off with exactly the same undercoat, so therefore, relying on the natural undercoat alone doesn't make sense. You are far better thinking about the undercoat you need to lift to in order to achieve the best results (even with highlift tint) and go from there.

Check the hair type, texture and tenacity for an indication of how difficult it will be to remove the natural underlying pigment and you'll be OK. If you don't do this, you may as well just apply 12/1 to every new level 6 client and hope for the best - never knowing exactly what you'll get ("will it be brassy / will it be OK?"). Some of my colour bills are 200+ so I couldn't get away with that, hence checking the the 3T's (Type, Texture and Tenacity) at the start of the service help me decide if I need to bleach and tone or if a hi-lift tint will be satisfactory.

Everytime I do that though, I am thinking about what it will take to get a pale yellow undercoat and whether I want to enhance or neutralise it when I get there - wherever I'm starting from. Hope that helps a bit.

Regarding the grey/white problem - some people's "white hair" isn't truly white at all. It still contains very small amounts of pheomelanin is some instances (usually in people who previously had very dark hair) and is undetectable to the naked eye. Their eyebrows usually give a clue - do they have the odd dark hair mixed in? If so, the chances are that their hair will contain pheomelanin in small amounts (especially if they are under the age of 65), and this can be oxidised with peroxide and tint. The best way around it is to colour as usual using a double natural base and then around 5 minutes before removal mix an ash colour at the same level with warm water and apply over the top of the colour - it will only be absorbed by the warm pigment and rejected by the artificial hair pigment.

The other things working against you are environmental factors (smoking etc) and one which many people forget - the colour pigments used in shampoo, styling products and conditioners - such as waxes which are yellow in colour, or cream coloured shampoos. These can build up on the hair and produce a 'brassy cast' too.

Hope that helps.

xx
that really really helps, can you come and live in my pocket, then i can get you out when i need you,lol. oh would you always use 20 vol on the white hair? thankssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxx:D:D:D:D:D

classixuk
16-05-12, 12:13 AM
that really really helps, can you come and live in my pocket, then i can get you out when i need you,lol. oh would you always use 20 vol on the white hair? thankssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxx:D:D:D:D:D

As white hair tends to be more tenacious than natural hair then yes, I would say that 99% of the time I would use 20 vol.

Exception is a client with very soft fine white hair (feels silky) in which case 10 vol would be sufficient - or chemically processed white hair of course.

:)

tiatia22
16-05-12, 12:16 AM
As white hair tends to be more tenacious than natural hair then yes, I would say that 99% of the time I would use 20 vol.

Exception is a client with very soft fine white hair (feels silky) in which case 10 vol would be sufficient - or chemically processed white hair of course.

:)
thanks, i'll let you get to bed, sorry about all the questions, i could go on and on.but i wont,ha ha .night.xx:D

Tiffyx
16-05-12, 12:17 AM
This thread has been a great read! :D

tiatia22
16-05-12, 06:27 PM
This thread has been a great read! :D

I've loved it, sent me slightly insane, but learned alot.xx:Love:

dee
16-05-12, 06:33 PM
i think classix should be doing online courses for color theory :lol: i know i would pay for his knowledge , lol

wonderwoman
16-05-12, 07:42 PM
classix has explained it very well. Do an online tutorial! Great read so far! xoxo

tiatia22
16-05-12, 11:35 PM
i think classix should be doing online courses for color theory :lol: i know i would pay for his knowledge , lol

I'll tell him.Think he's here somewhere in my pocket , oh dam ,where's he gone.....:Love:

snaz
17-05-12, 08:58 AM
Yes it is for informative! I just can't get why though wella says its the natural underlying pigments. Unless they manufacture there colours different to compensate for this?

I've asked them twice and its still the same answer!! Also college who uses wella said the same has wella!!
I think that's why this lead me to the confusion !!!!!

tiatia22
17-05-12, 07:15 PM
Yes it is for informative! I just can't get why though wella says its the natural underlying pigments. Unless they manufacture there colours different to compensate for this?

I've asked them twice and its still the same answer!! Also college who uses wella said the same has wella!!
I think that's why this lead me to the confusion !!!!!

I know what you mean, strange that Wella disagrees.I get the impression that the rules are the same for all colour lines, as when i asked the question, no one said what colour range do you use.You just want to know this is the right way ,and that's it. But seems everyone thinks different in the world of hairdressing.:Love:

tiatia22
17-05-12, 09:39 PM
Yes it is for informative! I just can't get why though wella says its the natural underlying pigments. Unless they manufacture there colours different to compensate for this?

I've asked them twice and its still the same answer!! Also college who uses wella said the same has wella!!
I think that's why this lead me to the confusion !!!!!

Snaz, I've ordered a book it's the science about colouring so hopefully i will understand more after that, i will let you know what it says.But i'm gonna be looking at the target base underlying pigment. Although it does still worry me abit regarding the Wella reply.xx:eek:

tiatia22
17-05-12, 09:55 PM
Altering Natural Pigment
Remaining pigment

When lightening hair with permanent hair color or lighteners, the first primary color to be removed is blue, this exposes the red and yellow (warmer) tones.
This remaining warm pigment is crucial to hair color because it determines the color selection when coloring or lifting.
The remaining warm pigment changes from level to level, varying shades of red/brown are seen when lifting from darker levels.
Working with the color wheel you may choose to either neutralize or enhance the remaining pigment.
To enhance remaining pigment, choose a color by working around the wheel.
To neutralize the remaining pigment, choose it�s complementary (opposite) color. Always remember that the remaining pigment has the ability to override artificial pigmentation. http://www.mastey.net/teinture/images/rpt.jpg
More info found.:Love:

snaz
17-05-12, 10:05 PM
Snaz, I've ordered a book it's the science about colouring so hopefully i will understand more after that, i will let you know what it says.But i'm gonna be looking at the target base underlying pigment. Although it does still worry me abit regarding the Wella reply.xx:eek:

Interesting to know what it says!! I'm going a a course with wella for blondes but it's not 9th July, I'll see what they say! I'll keep you posted!!

One question if you go with the target shade underlying pigments, what if the target shade depth has not been achieve how is it suppose to counteract then??

snaz
17-05-12, 10:15 PM
Well more and more we search the Internet the target shade pigment rules!!

tiatia22
17-05-12, 10:41 PM
Interesting to know what it says!! I'm going a a course with wella for blondes but it's not 9th July, I'll see what they say! I'll keep you posted!!

One question if you go with the target shade underlying pigments, what if the target shade depth has not been achieve how is it suppose to counteract then??

Well i suppose it's working it out and fingers crossed
eg base 6 wants a 9
up 3 levels use 30 vol, and include violet or ash/violet in the mix (say 9/16)
5-7 use 20 vol for 2 lifts and blue ash in your mix eg 7/1
that's if you want cool shades. I think that's right,lol.

snaz
18-05-12, 10:08 AM
Yes they sound right. Only difference with wella is that peroxide give different lifts

Pastel for toning or light bleach.
6% 1 shade lift or darker same depth/ for grey coverage

9% 2 levels of lift

12% 3 levels of lift or with high lift 4-5 levels.

tiatia22
18-05-12, 06:21 PM
Yes they sound right. Only difference with wella is that peroxide give different lifts

Pastel for toning or light bleach.
6% 1 shade lift or darker same depth/ for grey coverage

9% 2 levels of lift

12% 3 levels of lift or with high lift 4-5 levels.

I use Wella and Kadus ( just like Wella)
I always get 3 levels with 30 vol, I only use 40 vol with high lift, as i find 40 vol you lose your tone.:Love:

tiatia22
18-05-12, 10:06 PM
Each level that you stop hair color at (desired level) has a different underlining pigment so checking which level you'll stop is the most important thing to the formulation process, you check out the underlying pigment at that stopping point before you choose your artificial formula.

Check out hairdressing world underlying pigment there is a link and it explains in detail.It's great. xx:Love:

Perry_Althair
20-05-12, 03:26 PM
right...this is still on my mind lol

did we decide that colour graphics/spectrum applied to the same rules or not.

its just that when using spectrum, i seem to only get yellow when using green on 6 and below.

with blue i dont get a very obvious lift on 7 and 8, whereas using violet on a 7 i get a lovely creamy blonde!

can't get my head around this!:grr:

tiatia22
20-05-12, 03:53 PM
right...this is still on my mind lol

did we decide that colour graphics/spectrum applied to the same rules or not.

its just that when using spectrum, i seem to only get yellow when using green on 6 and below.

with blue i dont get a very obvious lift on 7 and 8, whereas using violet on a 7 i get a lovely creamy blonde!

can't get my head around this!:grr:

I'm gonna take it that it's target shade underlying pigment with 1-10 tints and high lift .So from your findings and from mine it seems to be the case.xx

Perry_Althair
20-05-12, 04:00 PM
I'm gonna take it that it's target shade underlying pigment with 1-10 tints and high lift .So from your findings and from mine it seems to be the case.xx

see this is where i'm getting confused...when bleaching and toning, you'd use the target level from your bleach, but thats also the starting tone before toning haha!

spectrum is like in between a highlift and a bleach, so if that is a case of using the starting pigment, that would be the only thing that applies to?

i know i should stick to my tech manual and what-not, but i seem to have got better results with using a violet pigment on hair that would, at the starting level, throw up orange, but it lifts to a yellow so how does that make sense? lol

Mandita8601
19-06-12, 05:17 AM
say someone has chestnut brown hair naturally, meaning they have level 5 depth and red undertones. This should come into consideration when choosing a colour to tint? or am i confusing things even more. Is that not why some of the lighter shades (in tints) have ash (green) in them. to neutralise the red as it lightens? that's my thinking anyway :) probably haven't explained that right lol

Lamaur man
19-06-12, 07:01 PM
say someone has chestnut brown hair naturally, meaning they have level 5 depth and red undertones. This should come into consideration when choosing a colour to tint? or am i confusing things even more. Is that not why some of the lighter shades (in tints) have ash (green) in them. to neutralise the red as it lightens? that's my thinking anyway :) probably haven't explained that right lol



Yes that is correct. If you suspect that the hair has strong red undertones, you could use a matt shade to help neutralise the red tones if you think they would show through your chosen shade. You can also use them in color correction to neutralise red tones. Just be aware that if you want to go very light, say level 8 or above when using a matt tone, the color may not be as light as expected because matt and strong ash tones are generally darker in character.

:D

MissMuggle
20-06-12, 08:40 PM
In Wella if you want to neutralise red/orange tone you would need to use koleston special mix /28 (which contains green/blue pigment) in with a base. If it's just orange tone you could use something that has /8 or /81 to neutralise it. In wella anything with /1(ash) will soften but not neutralise. Hope this helps. :-) x

Lamaur man
21-06-12, 10:29 AM
maybe it's for someone who has had a red colour and wants the red neutralising.xx:green:





Or someone with blonde hair who wants to look like the jolly green giant.
:D:D:D

tiatia22
04-08-13, 04:55 PM
whats the best shade to use when getting a cool 7 or 8 to neutralise the gold remaining pigment I'M USING WELLA. would you use a violet or blue ash shade as gold is made up from orange and yellow. anyone know if /1 in wella is a blue or green ash?

snaz
04-08-13, 05:18 PM
whats the best shade to use when getting a cool 7 or 8 to neutralise the gold remaining pigment I'M USING WELLA. would you use a violet or blue ash shade as gold is made up from orange and yellow. anyone know if /1 in wella is a blue or green ash?

/1 is a mixture of all the colours, I was told if you imagine when you was a child and painted and you cleaned your brush in water, you got the a mixture of muddy colours. (Wella told me this)..
/1 will only soften the tone not neutralise it..

Rachul123
10-08-13, 05:48 AM
*Using wella*
I only read half of this last night, kept dreaming about it and now woke up cant sleep wondering...

I have a client natural base 6.
She wants a natural blonde, say a level 9.
So instead of using a 9 with blue/green (plus 30) to neutralise orange/red undertones of base 6.
I would use a 9 (plus 30) with violet to neutralise some of the 9s gold?
OR
highlift tint?
I would have always neutralised the natural undertones, but if I'm stopping at a 9 do I use a violet highlift?
Or does that just apply to tint?
Or would I get a nicer colour with bleach and a toner?
Too much information my brains too sleepy haha zzzzzx x

Rachul123
10-08-13, 06:54 AM
The more I think about it the more it makes sense because if I was lifting a natural base 3 to say a 6, i wouldn't use gold id use blue if i wanted to get rid of the warmth. Been up since 4.30 my mind wouldn't shut up! X

persianista
10-08-13, 07:50 AM
You'd use a 9 (or 10) with violet tones.
I keep saying, it's not the tones present in the start level, but the tones present at the finished level that you need to tackle.

boobaloo
10-08-13, 03:29 PM
I would say as you are lifting over 2 shades, you are going to get more warmth coming through. I'm not convinced you won't get quite an orangey 9 as opposed to just a gold? If you were lifting within 2 levels then yes I agree with the violet tone, I would personally be opting for a blue ash to kill a stronger orange. Could you do a strand test with both of them?

Rachul123
10-08-13, 05:11 PM
I would say as you are lifting over 2 shades, you are going to get more warmth coming through. I'm not convinced you won't get quite an orangey 9 as opposed to just a gold? If you were lifting within 2 levels then yes I agree with the violet tone, I would personally be opting for a blue ash to kill a stronger orange. Could you do a strand test with both of them?

Thank you both for replying :)

Would be tricky to get a strand test as its just her roots!? She used to have bleach and a toner but she wants to tone it down to a more natural colour.

Last time I used a highlift 12/89, as at the time I was thinking-neutralise orange! :-/
It was still a little brassy at the root for my liking, she didn't mind it but could have been a nicer shade.. X

adamlea87
10-08-13, 07:00 PM
It does seem that every colour line has their own way of formulating for undertones or remaining pigment. I thought I would share a bit about how the undertones are created to help understand the lightening process more.

The Natural Pigments
There are two types of pigment present in all hair, eumelanin is a black or brown coloured pigment that is primarily responsible for depth and pheomelanin which is yellow or orange-red and is responsible for adding golden and red tones to the hair.

It is now generally thought that when the granules of melanin pigment are produced, they are produced in two steps whereby the
pheomelanin is first produced creating a core of yellow/red followed by a layer of brown/black eumelanin.

"The casing model"
(http://www.pnas.org/content/103/40/14647/F1.expansion.html)
Now it might seem obvious that red hair contains very high amounts of pheomelanin, and golden blonde hair also has more pheomelanin than ash-blonde hair BUT if the pigment granules are encased in a THICK layer of eumelanin this can mask the underlying pheomelanin, until you lighten the hair. This can explain why sometimes the hair might look flat, without warmth until you lighten it and tones of warmth is exposed!

Lightening the Hair
When you lighten the hair, the pigments are oxidised in two steps:
Firstly the pigment granules are solubilized by the peroxide, and then slowly dissolved. This initial reaction changes the colour of the eumelanin from black-brown to a reddish-brown. When you lighten dark hair, the undertone will generally be a red-brown tone due to the huge amounts of eumelanin being oxidized.

If you were to continue lightening the hair, and therefore removing the eumelanin, the once hidden pheomelanin becomes more visible, adding orange and yellow tones to the hair. The pheomelanin is more resistant to oxidation, therefore if you are creating a lot of orange when lightening the hair with hair colour, to remove it you would need to switch to using pre lightener which can break the pheomelanin down from orange to pale yellow.

Working with the undertone
There was a lot of discussion regarding if you neutralise that undertone of the natural colour or the desired level, and in my opinion they are both right!

For example if you were lightening the hair from a level 6 to an 8, the classic chart of undertones might tell you that the undertone is yellow- therefore a violet tone would be used to neutralise.
BUT if you can see in the light that there are orange tones visible in the base colour then this means that there is that underlying orange-pheomelanin which will be exposed when lightening so you should use a blue tone to neutralise.

However as explained earlier this is not always easy to see, especially if you are working on dark hair. In this case you can lighten a test piece of hair with a neutral or clear level 10 colour and observe the tones that are being exposed, where it is more yellow, orange or red and then you will know the best tone to neutralise for that individual's hair type.

The final consideration is how intense/saturated the undercoat is, for example the undercoat might be orange but how orange is it? If you were to put it into numbers would it be a soft copper or an intense copper? The intensity of the undercoat will tell you how much ash tone to add into your mixture.
Usually the coarser the hair, the more pigment it contains and therefore the more warmth will be exposed, so on coarse hair you might use a double ash shade, whereas on very fine hair a natural-ash might suffice.

tiatia22
10-08-13, 07:50 PM
You'd use a 9 (or 10) with violet tones.
I keep saying, it's not the tones present in the start level, but the tones present at the finished level that you need to tackle.

My colouring has greatly improved now im considering the target shade remaining pigment not the starting base shade underlying pigment. so glad i started this thread ,been brill.:Love:
my blonde hair is a lovely shade now lol.xx