Gray coverage that pulls too red?

[stefarama]

Hello! I'm a new member here and have been doing hair about 2-3 days a week for 18 years. I've just upped to full time again and am getting many new clients, which brings me to this question.
I have a lady who is 75% gray with desired level 7N or 8Ash. She pulls SO red, no matter what I (or anyone before me) has used on her. I use Joico color because it pulls the least red of any color line I've worked with so far. The first visit, I used Joico 7N (which is more ash than 7NN) with 10vol (to not lift and reveal underlying pigment), and she ended up 8G. (I've never seen that happen before in all my years.) She said it's what usually happens to her, was pleasant, paid and rebooked. The second visit I used 7A with 10 vol... she ended up 8G. Again, pleasant, paid and rebooked. The 3rd visit I suggested we go darker and then add highlights to get rid of the gold completely. We did 6A 10vol, and bleach highlights. This worked well, but she really doesn't want to have to pay for 2 services every time.
Can anyone offer a suggestion for her next visit that would bring her back to single process color, giving her the desired 7N or 8Ash?
My first thoughts are to use an all-over 8G (to fill the highlights and cover gray), then tone with 7A. Then for future visits I'm thinking I would do the 7N and tone with 7 or 8Ash. This is something I think I can do repeatedly at minimal cost to her since toner is much less expensive than foils. If I get this right, she will come every 4 weeks like clockwork, and is a lovely person to work with.

 

[AcidPerm]

I’m not clear from your post what her natural colour is?
Are you saying she’s 75% grey with a level 7 natural?
Is she just wanting to cover the white hair to blend in with her natural colour or does she want to go darker/lighter?

If she is a natural red head with a lot of red underlying pigment (maybe she has Irish or Scottish ancestry?), then you have to use bleach to lighten it then tone. Tint won’t work as well on this type of natural hair colour.

 

[ronray]

Hello! I'm a new member here and have been doing hair about 2-3 days a week for 18 years. I've just upped to full time again and am getting many new clients, which brings me to this question.
I have a lady who is 75% gray with desired level 7N or 8Ash. She pulls SO red, no matter what I (or anyone before me) has used on her. I use Joico color because it pulls the least red of any color line I've worked with so far. The first visit, I used Joico 7N (which is more ash than 7NN) with 10vol (to not lift and reveal underlying pigment), and she ended up 8G. (I've never seen that happen before in all my years.) She said it's what usually happens to her, was pleasant, paid and rebooked. The second visit I used 7A with 10 vol... she ended up 8G. Again, pleasant, paid and rebooked. The 3rd visit I suggested we go darker and then add highlights to get rid of the gold completely. We did 6A 10vol, and bleach highlights. This worked well, but she really doesn't want to have to pay for 2 services every time.
Can anyone offer a suggestion for her next visit that would bring her back to single process color, giving her the desired 7N or 8Ash?
My first thoughts are to use an all-over 8G (to fill the highlights and cover gray), then tone with 7A. Then for future visits I'm thinking I would do the 7N and tone with 7 or 8Ash. This is something I think I can do repeatedly at minimal cost to her since toner is much less expensive than foils. If I get this right, she will come every 4 weeks like clockwork, and is a lovely person to work with.

If she's ending up gold, I would look at using a predominantly violet based colour with a small amount of blue/pearl to. Providing you pick the same level as her natural or darker, then you should at least end up with a neutral colour.
Or you could try your 7N and add violet and blue intensifies accordingly.
Hope this helps.

 

[stefarama]

@AcidPerm She looks to be a natural 7N, but looking at older pics of her she's always a strawberry blonde. I had assumed that was from the color services, but it's possible she is a natural redhead and now that she's older it's darkening a bit and obscuring some of the red in the regrowth. Is that possible? If so, it would certainly explain why she ALWAYS pulls so red no matter who does her hair. If that's the case do you think a high lift color would work? I think she would be fearful of just bleach and tone. (Although that would be up to me to educate her, but high lift would be an easier sell.)
@ronray I haven't tried the intensifiers, yet, but could give them a try. Have you used the Joico intensifiers, or does another brand work with them that you know of? I have some hair samples I could practice on before using them on her.

 

[ronray]

@AcidPerm She looks to be a natural 7N, but looking at older pics of her she's always a strawberry blonde. I had assumed that was from the color services, but it's possible she is a natural redhead and now that she's older it's darkening a bit and obscuring some of the red in the regrowth. Is that possible? If so, it would certainly explain why she ALWAYS pulls so red no matter who does her hair. If that's the case do you think a high lift color would work? I think she would be fearful of just bleach and tone. (Although that would be up to me to educate her, but high lift would be an easier sell.)
@ronray I haven't tried the intensifiers, yet, but could give them a try. Have you used the Joico intensifiers, or does another brand work with them that you know of? I have some hair samples I could practice on before using them on her.

I haven't used them as I don't use joico, but I have use wella, and use the mix tones the same way. If your base colour is going to be joico then yes I would use joico intensifiers. Just remember that you don't need a lot, they are very intense, I would maybe look at 30g of 7N + 2. 5g of violet and 1.5g blue (that's what I would do if it was wella)

 

[stefarama]

@ronray That sounds very much like Aveda formulating (which is how I learned color to begin with). Side topic, but could you use the Wella natural series and the mix tones exclusively or do you still need a 5G etc. What i loved about Aveda was the small inventory. With the natural bases and the Pure Tones, I could turn my one tube of 5N into a 5G, 5RR, 5A, or of course 5N. It was great! Could I do that with the wella? (I'm guessing you're using the Koleston?) I am always open to a new color line if it's better to work with.

 

[ronray]

@ronray That sounds very much like Aveda formulating (which is how I learned color to begin with). Side topic, but could you use the Wella natural series and the mix tones exclusively or do you still need a 5G etc. What i loved about Aveda was the small inventory. With the natural bases and the Pure Tones, I could turn my one tube of 5N into a 5G, 5RR, 5A, or of course 5N. It was great! Could I do that with the wella? (I'm guessing you're using the Koleston?) I am always open to a new color line if it's better to work with.

Not at all, if you had all your mix tones and then all the bases you essentially have all you need just follow the rule of 11and you can't go far wrong
Rule of 11 =
11- Base shade =
Example 1; Making 5G or in wella 5/3
11 - Base 5 = 6 (6cm) ÷2=3 grams of mix tone
So it would equate to 30grams of 5/0 or 55/0 (depending on coverage need) + 3grams of 0/33.
Example 2; making 8/81.
11 - base 8 = 3(cm) ÷2 =1.5grams of mix tone.
So it would be 30grams of 8/0 + 1.5g 0/81 mix tone.
The rule of 11 is worked out on 30grams of base colour
So if you needed 45g of colour you could always use the rule of 11 and then re mix but just half your quantities, obviously in the same ratios.
I hope this makes sense to you!
Fingers crossed

 

[ronray]

I haven't used them as I don't use joico, but I have use wella, and use the mix tones the same way. If your base colour is going to be joico then yes I would use joico intensifiers. Just remember that you don't need a lot, they are very intense, I would maybe look at 30g of 7N + 2. 5g of violet and 1.5g blue (that's what I would do if it was wella)

Just updated this, just realised I origanally gave the wrong measurements of mix tone, think was thinking base 8 not 7 lol
This is correct now though
My bad

 

[stefarama]

No worries. Thanks so much! This makes perfect sense!
I will try this out on some hair samples. I think my trouble comes with trying to fit the Joico into my Aveda brain and it doesn't always work. You'd think it would be easier to have the colors premixed (especially after all these years) but it's hard to unlearn the original. Side note, the original Aveda chemist came from Wella... which makes sense now.

 

[ronray]

No worries. Thanks so much! This makes perfect sense!
I will try this out on some hair samples. I think my trouble comes with trying to fit the Joico into my Aveda brain and it doesn't always work. You'd think it would be easier to have the colors premixed (especially after all these years) but it's hard to unlearn the original. Side note, the original Aveda chemist came from Wella... which makes sense now.

That's something I didn't know! That's interesting! How are you getting on with joico? I always like the sound/idea of joico products but never taken the plunge!

 

[stefarama]

I do like the Joico. They are affordable and give consistent color. Their neutrals are a blue-based rather than mixed to address the underlying pigment right off the bat, which is why I was so surprised when they didn't neutralize this woman's gold. With other color lines like Matrix or Redken I've had to use an ash to get neutral, so then forget about getting an ash. :/ For that reason, they've been great so far. But I have always been on the lookout for a way to get back to the Aveda-style formulating, which is harder to do with Joico. And the Joico color intensity colors are great!
The more I think about it, she might have some natural redhead going on underneath since nobody has been able to cover the red with tint, so I might try @AcidPerm suggestion. But, I'm intrigued by the wella and will buy some to play with. Thanks so much for the info!!