LED lamp for ALL gels - at last

[NailsXpress]

How much is it?

 

[Pashaboutnails]

How much is it?

I don't think we are allowed to advise on prices. S2 will be able to help.

 

[Robyn1973f]

Legit question. The reason that we know that a CND lamp will work of other uv cured polishes is because those polishes have specified what works - generally a 36 watt UV lamp. That's what the CND lamp is, so it works on products that have that specification. For example, Jessica Geleration says • 36WATTS • 4x9 WATTBULBS; Gelish and ACG say "Recommended curing times are based on a 36-watt UV Lamp."; LeChat and IBD say "a 36watt UV light" and so on.

I think the other reason the CND lamp is sort of the gold standard for UV lights is that in order to make it hypoallergenic, CND Shellac has fewer and different photoinitiators in it, which make it a bit more difficult to cure. If a 36 watt lamp can properly cure CND Shellac, it can cure just about any UV polish!

This is great and totally explains the UV lamp issue but what about LED lamps? Is it right that the Sweet Squared Diva LED lamp can cure all systems which state LED lamps?

 

[geeg]

This is great and totally explains the UV lamp issue but what about LED lamps? Is it right that the Sweet Squared Diva LED lamp can cure all systems which state LED lamps?

That is what they say.

 

[xxAmyxx]

Hopefully if Shellac goes LED they will make it compatible with the Dashing Diva lamp x

 

[geeg]

Hopefully if Shellac goes LED they will make it compatible with the Dashing Diva lamp x

That might have been possible if Shellac was a gel like all the rest, but ....

Because Shellac is not a gel, I would guess that an LED UV lamp will be made that is compatible with Shellac, not the other way around ... Just as it is now with the CND UV lamp. But that is just a guess. I doubt they will be changing the patented formula of Shellac so that it complies with any led UV lamp ... It will be much more sensible to create an LED lamp that we can guarantee cures Shellac.

Still that is only a guess on my part ... But an educated one.

 

[Glitterz]

Legit question. The reason that we know that a CND lamp will work of other uv cured polishes is because those polishes have specified what works - generally a 36 watt UV lamp. That's what the CND lamp is, so it works on products that have that specification. For example, Jessica Geleration says • 36WATTS • 4x9 WATTBULBS; Gelish and ACG say "Recommended curing times are based on a 36-watt UV Lamp."; LeChat and IBD say "a 36watt UV light" and so on.

I think the other reason the CND lamp is sort of the gold standard for UV lights is that in order to make it hypoallergenic, CND Shellac has fewer and different photoinitiators in it, which make it a bit more difficult to cure. If a 36 watt lamp can properly cure CND Shellac, it can cure just about any UV polish!

I have a question!

The CND lamp is a 36watt uv lamp with four 9watt bulbs and a silver foil inner yes? I understand CND only 'guaranteeing' shellac when used in conjunction with their lamp, it will sell their lamp to their shellac techs.

I don't understand why they say shellac will only cure in the CND lamp. A 36watt uv lamp is a 36watt uv lamp, regardless of who makes it. The outage can be tested if you really want to, but what's different about the CND lamp that means ONLY that lamp will cure shellac?

I think what I'm asking is what is unique about the CND lamp? Genuine question.

Rx
Sent from my GT-I9300 using SalonGeek mobile app

 

[NancySyd]

I have a question!

The CND lamp is a 36watt uv lamp with four 9watt bulbs and a silver foil inner yes? I understand CND only 'guaranteeing' shellac when used in conjunction with their lamp, it will sell their lamp to their shellac techs.

I don't understand why they say shellac will only cure in the CND lamp. A 36watt uv lamp is a 36watt uv lamp, regardless of who makes it. The outage can be tested if you really want to, but what's different about the CND lamp that means ONLY that lamp will cure shellac?

Rx
Sent from my GT-I9300 using SalonGeek mobile app

There isn't a simple explanation for this and I am not an expert in this area, so this is just my (lengthy) perspective as a former nail tech turned business analyst. You might want to address this question to people more familiar with the ins and outs of CND, like geeg. Although we started with CND Shellac, most of the salons I work with have moved to other systems. The light issue was part of the reason. Those that continue to use CND Shellac use the CND lamps and are certified Shellac salons.

All 36 watt lamps are not created equal. The wattage is only a measure of how much energy the lamp uses, not a measure of what it puts out. In addition, the output has to be within a certain range of UV light; power alone is not enough. Finally, a lamp has to be designed so that the light hits all of the nails sufficient to thoroughly cure them. That's not easy; it requires some ergonomic design to make sure the hand is placed properly and a combination of bulbs and reflectors working together for a good cure. There is no easily accessible means for determining a lamp's output (range and power) nor is there any easily accessible way to determine a proper cure. It is my understanding that in order to achieve a hypoallergenic product, CND Shellac used fewer and different photo initiators than other gel lacquers. These make it a bit more difficult to cure than others and the CND Shellac lamp was designed to make sure that a proper cure was produced. It is therefore, an excellent lamp for all gel polishes that require a 36 watt lamp.

That said, I believe that CND has handled the lamp issue badly. Rather than saying that only the CND lamp can cure CND Shellac, I think they should have said that the CND lamps are the only lamps that we can guarantee can cure Shellac. I think it has been confirmed that other lamps can cure Shellac and that makes it look like CND was lying. I don't believe that they were; I believe they have been overly proprietary about CND Shellac in an attempt to keep it an exclusive, salon only product. I believe they have lost market share largely due to this issue. I hope that as they make CND Shellac LED curable, they let go of that proprietary stance and bring CND Shellac back into the mainstream. It is my hope 1) that CND will produce its own LED lamp equal in quality to its existing UV Shellac lamp and usable by other brands, but also, 2) that CND Shellac will be curable by any name brand LED lamp, and 3) that CND will come forward with guidance on ways to use Shellac in conjunction with other gel polishes.

I doubt I will see #3, but I think that 1 & 2 are quite achievable.

 

[geeg]

There isn't a simple explanation for this and I am not an expert in this area, so this is just my (lengthy) perspective as a former nail tech turned business analyst. You might want to address this question to people more familiar with the ins and outs of CND, like greg. Although we started with CND Shellac, most of the salons I work with have moved to other systems. The light issue was part of the reason. Those that continue to use CND Shellac use the CND lamps and are certified Shellac salons.

All 36 watt lamps are not created equal. The wattage is only a measure of how much energy the lamp uses, not a measure of what it puts out. In addition, the output has to be within a certain range of UV light; power alone is not enough. Finally, a lamp has to be designed so that the light hits all of the nails sufficient to thoroughly cure them. That's not easy; it requires some ergonomic design to make sure the hand is placed properly and a combination of bulbs and reflectors working together for a good cure. There is no easily accessible means for determining a lamp's output (range and power) nor is there any easily accessible way to determine a proper cure. It is my understanding that in order to achieve a hypoallergenic product, CND Shellac used fewer and different photo initiators than other gel lacquers. These make it a bit more difficult to cure than others and the CND Shellac lamp was designed to make sure that a proper cure was produced. It is therefore, an excellent lamp for all gel polishes that require a 36 watt lamp.

That said, I believe that CND has handled the lamp issue badly. Rather than saying that only the CND lamp can cure CND Shellac, I think they should have said that the CND lamps are the only lamps that we can guarantee can cure Shellac. I think it has been confirmed that other lamps can cure Shellac and that makes it look like CND was lying. I don't believe that they were; I believe they have been overly proprietary about CND Shellac in an attempt to keep it an exclusive, salon only product. I believe they have lost market share largely due to this issue. I hope that as they make CND Shellac LED curable, they let go of that proprietary stance and bring CND Shellac back into the mainstream. It is my hope 1) that CND will produce its own LED lamp equal in quality to its existing UV Shellac lamp and usable by other brands, but also, 2) that CND Shellac will be curable by any name brand LED lamp, and 3) that CND will come forward with guidance on ways to use Shellac in conjunction with other gel polishes.

I doubt I will see #3, but I think that 1 & 2 are quite achievable.

Can I just say my name is geeg not Greg? Lol. And CND have always said that they only guarantee complete cure with the CND lamp.

 

[NancySyd]

Can I just say my name is geeg not Greg? Lol

Darned auto-correct!! I only changed it three times. Sorry.

 

[Glitterz]

Thanks for the answer NancySyd.

I totally agree, there are multiple factors including shape, reflection, bulb etc that affect UV lamps, but it would be fairly simple to measure their actual output by sticking a meter onto a fingertip and popping it into the lamp!

I just am often given the impression on that the CND lamp is somehow unique, but as you say, I think it's just it's the only one CND can guarantee cures shellac - not that no other UV lamp will work.

Lamp chat always provides food for thought!

Rx

Sent from my GT-I9300 using SalonGeek mobile app

 

[BobSweden]

Really? Then that is different from the way it is here. There are lots of lamps that say they cure any LED gel (Star Nails, Ikonna, IBD Jet, for example). And that's all well and good for the lamp maker to say that. What we're still not seeing is the gel polish manufacturer saying - this gel works with any (# watt) LED lamp.

I say this not to diminish your point. I would welcome some standardization of gels and lamps as well as some guidance on intermixing systems. There is no reason for this craziness about lamps and systems.

That's right and there is a good reason for this. The effectiveness of a UV lamp depends on a number of design factors including:

1. UV output of the light emitter (florescent bulb, LED or CCFL). These vary enormously by manufacturer - most of us know that Philips, Sylvester or Osram make very good standard (CFL) Uv bulbs and that cheaper Chinese not only produce less UV but also the output fades very quickly so they need replacing sooner.
2. The position and quality of the reflectors. In CFL and CCFL bulbs the UV is radiated 360 degrees so reflectors help to re-use the misdirected energy back onto the nails.
3. Distance of the UV emitting device to the nails. Light like sound doesn't like much going through air so the closer the nails to the UV device, the more intensive the cure.

Now if you are planning to develop a general purpose gel, it is possible to design this so that it cures with the majority of UV lamps out there, including the cheap Chinese devices. But if you want to produce a high performance gel that has a higher viscosity or an exceptional white, then you these require much more UV energy to cure, so you need a way better UV lamp.

We're a small company that is fairly unique in that we have created our own gels together with our chemist and experienced competition team. Our objective was to create the ultimate gel, which among other things meant:

• very low heat produced during curing (for most customers it's not noticeable)
• higher viscosity for easier product placement
• used low-allergy risk ingredients (our chemist is something of an expert in this)
• a competition white gel that:
  
  • could be applied in one layer
  • 50% c-curve could be created without pinching
  • no shrinkage or c-curve reduction during curing
  • could be applied in one layer
  • an exceptionally white, white

Now anyone who has a deep experience of gel and perhaps competed will know that our demands for the white gel is pretty much the holy grail. There was nothing on the market that we knew of that did all that. However, after two years of development we met all our design objectives.

The problem was, we had to decide to compromise on the performance of our gels if we would accept any UV lamp being used and we were not willing to do that. So the gels do need a good quality UV lamp (such as those produced by CND or Light Elegance, or our own UV lamp) to cure inside 2 minutes (our own CCFL+LED UV lamp actually cures faster).

We couldn't afford to design our own UV lamp and produce 50,000 of them. So we had to search the market for a UV lamp that was good enough. After a lot of effort we succeeded. But what was especially interesting was that some high power UV lamps (+45W) were actually slower to cure than other UV lamps with lower power (bearing in mind that W means electrical power used and that does not necessarily mean it generates more UV - for all the reasons mentioned above).

Now that does mean that we can't guarantee that our new gels will work with any UV lamp. But we think that the NT who are looking for an exception gel won't mind investing in a new UV lamp - after all CCFL and LED will work for years and save a lot of money on tradiational UV bulb replacement). So far that has pretty much been the case.

What this illustrates is that the UV lamp is an essential part of the gel system chemistry. We know that if we try to bake a cake at the wrong temperature that we won't get a good result. Well, different UV lamps generate different levels of UV energy and that is why using a UV lamp that is recommended by the manufacturer is the only sensible choice.

Companies that sell UV lamps that they claim to work with any gel are either not being honest or simply have no idea about the chemistry of gel. So it is highly unlikely that you will ever get a standard UV lamp that cures all gels - not least because each manufacturer uses different quantities of photoinitiators in their formula's.

 

[geeg]

That's right and there is a good reason for this. The effectiveness of a UV lamp depends on a number of design factors including:

1. UV output of the light emitter (florescent bulb, LED or CCFL). These vary enormously by manufacturer - most of us know that Philips, Sylvester or Osram make very good standard (CFL) Uv bulbs and that cheaper Chinese not only produce less UV but also the output fades very quickly so they need replacing sooner.
2. The position and quality of the reflectors. In CFL and CCFL bulbs the UV is radiated 360 degrees so reflectors help to re-use the misdirected energy back onto the nails.
3. Distance of the UV emitting device to the nails. Light like sound doesn't like much going through air so the closer the nails to the UV device, the more intensive the cure.

Now if you are planning to develop a general purpose gel, it is possible to design this so that it cures with the majority of UV lamps out there, including the cheap Chinese devices. But if you want to produce a high performance gel that has a higher viscosity or an exceptional white, then you these require much more UV energy to cure, so you need a way better UV lamp.

We're a small company that is fairly unique in that we have created our own gels together with our chemist and experienced competition team. Our objective was to create the ultimate gel, which among other things meant:

• very low heat produced during curing (for most customers it's not noticeable)
• higher viscosity for easier product placement
• used low-allergy risk ingredients (our chemist is something of an expert in this)
• a competition white gel that:
  
  • could be applied in one layer
  • 50% c-curve could be created without pinching
  • no shrinkage or c-curve reduction during curing
  • could be applied in one layer
  • an exceptionally white, white

Now anyone who has a deep experience of gel and perhaps competed will know that our demands for the white gel is pretty much the holy grail. There was nothing on the market that we knew of that did all that. However, after two years of development we met all our design objectives.

The problem was, we had to decide to compromise on the performance of our gels if we would accept any UV lamp being used and we were not willing to do that. So the gels do need a good quality UV lamp (such as those produced by CND or Light Elegance, or our own UV lamp) to cure inside 2 minutes (our own CCFL+LED UV lamp actually cures faster).

We couldn't afford to design our own UV lamp and produce 50,000 of them. So we had to search the market for a UV lamp that was good enough. After a lot of effort we succeeded. But what was especially interesting was that some high power UV lamps (+45W) were actually slower to cure than other UV lamps with lower power (bearing in mind that W means electrical power used and that does not necessarily mean it generates more UV - for all the reasons mentioned above).

Now that does mean that we can't guarantee that our new gels will work with any UV lamp. But we think that the NT who are looking for an exception gel won't mind investing in a new UV lamp - after all CCFL and LED will work for years and save a lot of money on tradiational UV bulb replacement). So far that has pretty much been the case.

What this illustrates is that the UV lamp is an essential part of the gel system chemistry. We know that if we try to bake a cake at the wrong temperature that we won't get a good result. Well, different UV lamps generate different levels of UV energy and that is why using a UV lamp that is recommended by the manufacturer is the only sensible choice.

Companies that sell UV lamps that they claim to work with any gel are either not being honest or simply have no idea about the chemistry of gel. So it is highly unlikely that you will ever get a standard UV lamp that cures all gels - not least because each manufacturer uses different quantities of photoinitiators in their formula's.

This is a great post, Bob, and I would not argue with anything in it ... After all, CND and Doug Schoon have been giving out the very same information you have posted for many years now. It does seem in many cases, that we are banging our heads against a wall.

Some people will just not listen because they dislike being TOLD, even though the facts are staring them in the face.

One thing that has really made a difference recently is actually demonstrating what happens when the same product is placed under 8 different UV lamps. For ease, only four lamps were used in the following video; Two were lamps with standard CCFL bulbs and 2 were lamps with LED bulbs. You may find it interesting to perform this experiment with your product for your customers.

http://www.salongeek.com/picture.php?]

Here is the full video
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cewcrle7TR4#t=14[/url]

 

[lilly]

So this new lamp has been tested on gelish, Bio sculpture, opi etc ?

 

[libbylou]

Thank you nancysyd for explaining to me , i asked the question has i really did not know the answer, i had a college student on placement , and we are very strict with our lamps (we have a lamp for the 3 systems we use) and she asked why we could not use any other lamp apart from the cnd lamp with shellac,but could use our cnd lamp with any system,tbh i did not have a good enough explanation for her, this has really explained it for me , thank you for taking your time to answer my question.

 

[NancySyd]

Can I just say my name is geeg not Greg? Lol. And CND have always said that they only guarantee complete cure with the CND lamp.

Oh I very much beg to differ. It has been said (probably hundreds of times) on this forum alone by many people that only the CND lamp can cure CND Shellac. A quick look at SG gave me these examples:

Thousands of people have bought the CND UV Lamp to cure the systems they are using becsuse it is a fab lamp. But it doesn't work the other way around ... ONLY the CND lamp will cure Shellac.

Other lamps will not cure Brisa or Shellac or any other future CND gels that will appear on the market.

The best buy is the lamp that cures your system.

Only the Shellac lamp will cure Shellac.

http://www.salongeek.com/general-articles/112929-how-assemble-use-your-new-cnd-uv-lamp.html

from S2 - *For guaranteed Shellac and Brisa results you must use the CND Lamp or the vintage CND Brisa Lamp. The use of any other lamp will result in under-curing.

From CND website - Only use the CND UV Lamp with CND Shellac.

 

[geeg]

Those are things I have personally said, yes. My statements were and are always in the best interest of the nail technicians who use this site for information and who use CND systems in their businesses, as always.

My post says that the CND statement has always been that they will only guarantee a complete cure with the CND lamp. and that is as always.

I personally do not know of another lamp that has ever been tested by the scientists that does guarantee a cure of CND Shellac; there maybe one, (and I have said this also in many posts which you have omitted to quote) but I have never seen the scientific proof that tells me which one. I really don't have a problem with my statements or see a conflict, but as I said in my quoted post the CND stance includes the words ' the only lamp guaranteed to cure' etc.

 

[NancySyd]

First of all, even when I disagree (vehemently) with you, geeg, I know that you are acting and speaking with the best interests of individual nail techs and the profession in mind. I don't think anyone questions that.

That said, I think you have a bias for CND and for compliance with their strictures. I do understand that bias. I think CND Shellac is a great product. I think CND Shellac makes a great lamp and I have always used it with my Shellac. But I think that CND has a very proprietary approach and that they (along with many others) went way overboard by repeatedly asserting that only the CND lamps could properly cure CND Shellac. But I think that this statement is likely not true - that there are others that can cure Shellac perfectly fine. I think CND did it to maintain control over their innovative product. But I think many nail techs regarded this as a deliberate lie and an attempt to keep techs within the CND fold. I think it damaged the perception of CND and that CND has lost market share because of this issue. When CND Shellac was introduced, it as one of a kind. Years later, that is no longer true and I hope that CND makes advances it will keep that in mind and will seek ways to have CND Shellac work within the larger market of gel lacquers available to pros and consumers today.

 

[mum]

More lamp discussions!!

CND have a fantastic marketing team and are obviously very image conscious but.....they have always made it clear they are even more conscious of safety and supporting the professional.

Think about it: CND make more profit from the sales of Shellac than they do on a one off purchase of an inexpensive lamp. If they had 'given up' and said use any lamp with Shellac they would have sold a whole lot more to those genuinely listen to manufacturers instructions and have other lamps. At the very least a whole lot more would have tried Shellac.

But they didn't! That's because they know with 100% certainty that their lamp provides a proper cure. How many lamps on the market? Where would they start with testing and why should they?

I really don't understand why people have to see some 'hidden agenda' or deliberate lies!

Bob Giblett great post on explaining the complications of putting together a product system that does exactly what you want it to do with guaranteed results!