Looking out for the little guys, discuss?

[bimbogeri]

Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea before I start, this isn’t a rant. I’m genuinely interested in hearing about people’s own experiences and opinions on this, and would also love it if some of the nail companies could maybe get involved because I would love to hear it from the other side of the fence, as it were. Which is why when I talk about companies I'm not going to name any names cos I don't want this turning into a bashing thread. There, groundrules over

Anyway... I would reckon that a good 80% of the geeks on here are either freelance nail techs (renting or mobile), or work from home. And so we're all solely responsible for ordering our own products and any retail items, and probably don't have a massive amount of money for ordering, or a lot of room for storing excess items.
So, with this in mind, how many of you have ever fallen foul of a company's policy regarding areas such as flat rate shipping, minimum orders, or minimum order quantities?

A couple of examples I've personally had recently:

• one company charging a flat rate shipping (won't say who or how much, but close to double figures), when the parcel that came only cost £2.50 and wasn't even sent via recorded delivery, just bog standard mail, which meant there was no way of tracking it and no insurance for the contents inside. I have no qualms about paying postage, I'd even be happy to pay EVERY TIME rather than have an upper limit after which postage is free. But I object to paying more than 3 times the cost of the package, especially when it's just sent by standard mail.
  
• companies with minimum order fees of £50 and upwards.
  Now I understand if you want to offer customers free shipping, then make them purchase enough to cover your costs. But surely most big companies are selling you items that are in stock already, it's not like they're having to order them in specially (hence extra cost and admin), so why the minimum order? And I don't mean that as a bitch or a rhetorical question, I have no head for big business so I would genuinely love a company to explain it to me so I can understand and appreciate why. Especially as it seems to me that it's the smaller companies and wholesalers that manage to keep their minimum orders down, and the big guns, who have warehouses spilling over with stock, that have the high minimums.
  
• companies with minimum order quantities, such as nail polish or make-up colours needing to be bought in quantities of 2, 4, or even 6, rather than one of each colour. I don't mean just ordering one polish at a time, I mean one of each of different shades.
  Unless you're in a salon that has either: more than nail station; gets through polish quickly; or sells a lot of a polish, this is really prohibitive.

For me as a sole trader I find this really frustrating. There are companies that I feel I cannot (not won't, CAN'T) work with because their policies are prohibitive for me. I'm all for buying in bulk where I can, because it does work out more efficient, but I don't have the money or the space to work with a lot of these companies. I can't afford to have to buy 60 polishes when I only want 30, but I have to buy them in pairs. I don't have the ready cash or the space to place an £100 order in one go when £30s worth of stock will last me three months and I only earn £20 a week from nails.
This is especially a problem for me as there is only one half-way decent wholesaler within 30 miles of me, so I just have to do mail order.

How does everyone else feel about this? Have you also had to give up on using certain brands because you can't get the items? Or have you found ways of working round it? Do you grit your teeth and go overdrawn to make one big order every 6 months? Or maybe you stock-share with other local techs to share the costs? Do you wait until the shows so you can buy from one brand then?

And nail companies - with so much of the UK market seeming to be freelance technicians instead of salons and spas, do you feel your practises are really suited to your customers? Or do you feel I've given you an unfair hearing, given that I don't know what goes on in big business?

Sorry if this topic (and very long post!) is a bit too much for Friday night, just thought it was an area we could really get our teeth into and hopefully have a really good nail-based discussion, and, you never know, maybe even influence our industry a bit.

[climbs down off soapbox]

 

[Sassy Hassy]

I know this is something that you have covered before and this is how I view things ...

I think although sometimes postage costs may seem more than what you get, don;t forget that companies have to pay staff to find the goods and package them to you.

I'm not too worried about paying the postage costs because my order may not come under the minimum amount to get free postage. I'd rather spend £7 on postage and have minimum overheads in my home salon, than get free postage and have to pay £1000+ rent a month!!!

I've not really had a lot of experience with minimum orders etc and that affecting my spending loyalty. To me customer service and good products get the major priority when looking for a company.

However I do think companies need to see that the small guys are as important as the big guys (and I'm sure most of them do). i used to work in Fleet car sales and Ford Motor company realised that if you added up all the cars of the one man bands to fleets of under 25 cars, that it would be the largest company fleet in the country. They therefore introduced a Local Business Development Programme to encourage companies with under 25 vehicles to buy Fords with a team of dealer based Local Business Specialists to get conquest business and look after them ( I was one of them). It was so successful that all the other major car manufacturers followed suit.

But also how would you feel if you were spending £10K a year with a company? I think you'd feel that you'd warrant a little more TLC and better terms than someone who spent £100?

Sorry Lol feels like I'm sat on the fence here, but I can't say your prob really affects me.

 

[bimbogeri]

Sit away, Sass :biggrin:
I guess it might seem like I'm whingeing a bit
You have a good point about the £10k versus £100 bit.. I spose though I guess that what I'd want is more of a level playing field, although maybe I might be in the minority in thinking that the playing field isn't level.
Or maybe I just keep picking duff companies! :lol:

 

[Sassy Hassy]

Or maybe I just keep picking duff companies! :lol:

!!!!

 

[bimbogeri]

Don't worry, Sass, I've learned my lesson, no more shopaholic for me

To be honest it doesn't bother me as much as it used to: before I'd get cross if I saw something I liked but I couldn't get it cos of a policy like any of the ones I've mentioned... now I just move on and pick something else.

However, that leads me to wonder if there are some companies that are missing out on custom??

Like you said about Ford having a special section for small fleets, I wonder how many brands lose out on custom because they only really cater for salons and shops? Or does it not matter to them if they lose £100 here or there cos they have enough customers spending £10k?

I wonder if this is the same in the US as the UK? Do UK companies lose out a bit cos they have to import their products?

Sorry, thinking out loud here!

 

[tamimac]

Hey Geri
I have been questioning this for ages. I get charged £9 postage for orders under£100, which is fine but really annoying when I run out of adhesive.
I usually save up an order so theres £100 worth but sometimes stuff happens and Im in a jam and I need a particular thing in a hurry. What really burns is when I really do need 3 bottles of 79p glue and they stiff me the whole £9.
I have asked them to just shove them in a jiffy bag with a first class stamp, but NO, apparrently thats not possible, WHY???
Im a good customer, Ok, so I only order about £800- £1000 worth of stuff a year, and Im not a BIG client, but surely lots of us little people are just as important as one big company?

 

[dee]

hi hun i can see your point on this, but i am lucky that for most of my stuff i just nip to the wholsalers coz its on my doorstep :lol: but for other stuff i have to order from different places then i try and save it up for as long as poss and do a big order that way i aint paying £X postage

 

[laneypants]

I know what you mean, sometimes with the minimum order i end up ordering something i dont really need just to make the price up. Then like you say when you see something thats a couple of quid that you fancy trying I wont get it because I cant afford to order other stuff just for the sake of it. I do have a Sally's down the road from me but to be honest I only use them in emergency's for couch roll/files etc as I dont really rate what they stock for nails.
If I had a client make an appointment for a one time only set of nails who i knew i would never see again i would not treat her any differently than a client who regularly came every 2 weeks so i dont see why manufacturers should treat their big spenders any differently to us little guys. thats my two pennies anyway

 

[NAIL FRENZY]

I try to hold on untill I need quite a few items but that is'nt always practical. If you run out of one core item but have everything else, it becomes quite costly.

 

[Mrs Geek]

Hi Lol -
Excellent thread, and one I would like to respond to. I do not know of which companies you are referring to so I will just state what we do for 'the little guys' as you call yourself as opposed to large salons etc.

charging a flat rate shipping

• We have a standard charge of £6.50 for postage and packing when the order exceeds a certain amount but I just 'played with our system and 5 x 2.3oz SolarOils were still only £1.50 in postage (I think £6.50 applies over £100) BUT - as of end of March, any orders over £100.00 plus VAT will be P&P free and anything under will be normal charges. In other words, we are NOT trying to be greedy!! :Look_righ :Look_left

companies with minimum order fees of £50 and upwards.

• I am not sure what this is??? At first I thought you meant minimum orders, but order fees??? When we bring in stock into the UK, it's not just a few bottles of this or that - we bring in 100's of palettes and we pay customs tax on this plus a myriad of other charges... that's the nature of the game - we do not penalise our customers for this... and once again, we are NOT the most expensive products on the market!!

companies with minimum order quantities, such as nail polish or make-up colours needing to be bought in quantities of 2, 4, or even 6, rather than one of each colour. I don't mean just ordering one polish at a time, I mean one of each of different shades.
Unless you're in a salon that has either: more than nail station; gets through polish quickly; or sells a lot of a polish, this is really prohibitive.

• We have NEVER done this; if you want to buy 1 enamel - FINE!! In all the years of business we have not done this and we do not plan on doing this; I think we all know why some companies do this!:wink2:

For me as a sole trader I find this really frustrating. There are companies that I feel I cannot (not won't, CAN'T) work with because their policies are prohibitive for me.

• Lol, I hope you don't see us as a company prohibitive to you in anyway and I don't know if you are a customer of ours or not but maybe you should write these concerns to the companies you are referring to. If you are referring to us... PM me with your concerns!

Do you wait until the shows so you can buy from one brand then?

• I know MANY of our customers do this because we have specific deals that are cost effective at the shows (although I think we produce some great deals throughout the year also).

And nail companies - with so much of the UK market seeming to be freelance technicians instead of salons and spas, do you feel your practises are really suited to your customers? Or do you feel I've given you an unfair hearing, given that I don't know what goes on in big business?

• I think you have raised valid points that concern you and your situation. As a major nail company within the UK market, I hope we are trying to consider the needs of the mobile/freelance nail tech as well as the salons. This is why we do mail-order as well as having 8 OSNS around the country. We have also started the Sales Team so that we can GO TO the salons to help them also! I don't know if I have missed anything or if we are one of the companies that you are sighting but I hope my comments have helped!

 

[Bagpuss]

I have in the past looked on a website and thought i might like this and that..gone to checkout and saw the P&P and thought forget it. But equally i have received items that i have ordered all wrapped safe and secure, delivered quickly and thought, yes ! that was worth the P&P..bubble wrap ain't cheep, boxes, tape etc...sometimes i think we just think about the postage and forget about the packaging that ensures a safe delivery. I wouldn't be happy to receive my goods all damaged and spoiled.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Northern Nails]

I think this is an interesting thread and would be interested to hear what the other nail companies have to say.

I received a letter this morning from CND explaining the new P&P conditions and i think this is great. i work mobile and dont store large amounts of stock, and free P&P on orders over £100 to me is excellent as i too rely on mail order. And when you think about £100 isn't that much by the time you have bought monomer, powders, gels etc it soon mounts up.

Placing a larger order every so often rather than little orders every month or so would be better value for me to take advantage of this. so well done to Creative for thinking of the smaller businesswomen/man. Maybe other companies should take heed

 

[Sassy Hassy]

would be interested to hear what the other nail companies have to say.

Would be nice for them to reply I agree!

 

[bimbogeri]

Have to say that Creative weren't one of the companies I was talking about at all I don't use Creative myself but as far as I'm aware they're one of the best companies for customer service, and this is probably another contributory reason for them doing so well here in the UK (and worldwide). It does tend to be some lesser well known companies I am talking about, and this makes me think that maybe they would be better known and more widely used if their practises were a bit better.
I have tried bringing up my comments (especially the one regarding minimum order quantities) with these companies, but they don't seem to be bothered... I'm sure there is one nail polish company in particular that people could guess that I'm talking about cos I know a lot of geeks on here are ex-users of their product, and it's their ordering policies in particular that stopped people using them.

It's great that you could stop and take the time to reply, Samantha, I'd like to think some other industry bods could deign to do the same!

 

[bimbogeri]

Also...
I meant to say 'minimum orders' not minimum order fees. I don't mind there being a minimum of say, £20 or £30 maybe, as I guess companies like to feel they're making enough money on an order to make it worth their time to pack it up and ship it out, but a minimum of £50 or £70 seems silly to me.
For example all the polish companies come out with seasonal collections, between 2 and 6 times a year, and as a tech you want to get your hands on them ASAP - you want those new colours in your hot little hands (or is that just me..? ) and you want to take advantage of the sales opportunity BUT what happens when the collection is only £35 ex VAT, and your supplier has a £60 minimum order? Do you wait, or do you end up buying £25's worth of stuff you don't need right now, just so you can get the collection? This was an issue early last year with a certain company and I know they made an exception for a certain collection, but I don't know if it's the same all the time. Likewise, I called a company cos I wanted to get a trial kit. Cost, £20. Fine, I says.. "But our minimum order is £70 so you have to make it up to that". Wha-ha-hat???

Oh, and could someone who knows more about VAT explain why companies have to charge VAT on p&p charges? I'm assuming there is a good reason so could someone clarify for me so I stop feeling like it's just 'free money' for the company?

 

[Mrs Geek]

Have to say that Creative weren't one of the companies I was talking about at all I don't use Creative myself but as far as I'm aware they're one of the best companies for customer service, and this is probably another contributory reason for them doing so well here in the UK (and worldwide). I have tried bringing up my comments (especially the one regarding minimum order quantities) with these companies, but they don't seem to be bothered... I'm sure there is one nail polish company in particular that people could guess that I'm talking about cos I know a lot of geeks on here are ex-users of their product, and it's their ordering policies in particular that stopped people using them.

It's great that you could stop and take the time to reply, Samantha, I'd like to think some other industry bods could deign to do the same!

Well Lol, from my point of view, it's good to hear that we are not one of the companies that you are thinking of - what can I say?- I have given you 3 excellent reasons of why you should give us a try :lol: (well I have to say something don't I, I wouldn't be me if I didn't :lol: ).

On a serious note though and in response to your following quote...

It does tend to be some lesser well known companies I am talking about, and this makes me think that maybe they would be better known and more widely used if their practises were a bit better.

It makes me wonder why too?? If they are smaller companies than ourselves, surely they do not have anything like the same overheads, shipping costs, vat bills etc... so MY question is also WHY???

You are all smart people on here - Lol, you have obviously thought about this in depth to write such an adept thread...

I personally think that there are many greedy people out there doing business; people who saw $$$$ signs when they saw the nail market; people who thought 'I'll bring nail products from the US and make a fortune - I'll just sell it to anyone... who cares; Oh yeah and while I'm at it, I'll make the customer pay for this, that and the other.... we can't fail'...
... and yet this is the exact attitude that makes a business fail. Our focus is to try and partner with our customers... notice I use the word PARTNER... because if you are successful in business then that makes us successful in business and isn't that the damn point in the first place?? To be happy and successful within your industry and business??

Sure I know some people will be reading this thread and my response and thinking... 'here she goes again'... but you know what AT LEAST I AM ANSWERING!!!

In the words of the great band FGTH - "Samantha says..... No More"!!!! :idea:

 

[Mrs Geek]

Oh, and could someone who knows more about VAT explain why companies have to charge VAT on p&p charges? I'm assuming there is a good reason so could someone clarify for me so I stop feeling like it's just 'free money' for the company?

That we do do... and the reason being is because we have to pay VAT ourselves on it, and that's the only reason. I was looking at the vat when I was playing with our system to see what P&P costs were (actually £1.50 for 5 2.3oz SolarOils was pretty cheap I thought)... anyway, the vat was added to the product plus P&P!!

VAT bills are horrendous but that's how business works - we pay it so you must also - this is also why we NEVER have vat free at shows and why we NEVER have been vat free at shows - at the end of the day... you are paying cost plus vat rather tha retail - we can't have it both ways!! I think I'd prefer £3.45 + vat per enamel that £10.00!! :lol:

Many who say they are include it in their prices; another interesting point is that it is ILLEGAL to say VAT free at shows... something I think PB will be taking far more seriously at their future trade shows. HTH's Lol!!! :Grope:

 

[Northern Nails]

That we do do... and the reason being is because we have to pay VAT ourselves on it, and that's the only reason. I was looking at the vat when I was playing with our system to see what P&P costs were (actually £1.50 for 5 2.3oz SolarOils was pretty cheap I thought)... anyway, the vat was added to the product plus P&P!!

VAT bills are horrendous but that's how business works - we pay it so you must also - this is also why we NEVER have vat free at shows and why we NEVER have been vat free at shows - at the end of the day... you are paying cost plus vat rather tha retail - we can't have it both ways!! I think I'd prefer £3.45 + vat per enamel that £10.00!! :lol:

Many who say they are include it in their prices; another interesting point is that it is ILLEGAL to say VAT free at shows... something I think PB will be taking far more seriously at their future trade shows. HTH's Lol!!! :Grope:

I took it that they have offers of 17.5% discount rather than saying VAT free. i think this is how nsi worded it last year.

 

[bekster123]

Hi Lol-

Fantastic thread- I HAVE to AGREE with you....

I'm a tiny mobile business who doesn't do many clients at all- i find P&P costs & minimum orders a complete pain in the arse... so much so i now tend to go to my local Sally's to pick up the one item i need each time as i cannot afford to put mail orders in each time i need something- (this isn't my branded lines).

Maybe when business picks up & i have an income from nails then i might be in a different position to purchase duplicate items...currently tho it's a big no no.

 

[suey]

I understand what you are saying lol! I too in the past have been frustrated at paying around £10 postage for a couple of items.

I know i don't count as one of the big boys, as it is only little ol' me and my family helping out, but i too get comments about the postage i charge, (i just have my standard rate of £3.45). I sometimes get people spending less on the items than postage! Why? I wouldn't do it, but then it is not up to me, maybe i should have a minimum order!!! Strange how i get people saying, why have i been charged so much? but i never get " Sue, you spent £15 on that delivery, i owe you some money!" It is all there in black and white before you pay.

Sorry, Lol, as i say, i appreciate what you are saying, but it frustrates me the opposite way sometimes. Hope that makes sense :biggrin: