Venalisa polygel and other Asian brands

[Nemi]

Hey there L3 NVQ Student nail tech here - I have a question RE; MMA vs EMA in products , here's the context:

So I'm close to completing my NVQ and wanting to practice ( a lot) to get my full set speed up to industry standards so I can gain employment - currently I am very poor ( like, I struggle to afford to buy clothing in charity shops) - so I'm searching for an economical source of products to practice with ( including on people - not just flexi fingers). I plan to charge for my materials, but also want to purchase Public Liability Insurance as soon as it becomes applicable and this along with other equipment needed, is not cheap. So, with this in mind my questions is two fold ;

1: Does anyone use Venalisa products (particularly the polygels) and are they MMA free? I have emailed the company but I'm not sure if I trust them to know or possibly even to be entirely candid. Thier web address is below.

https://venalisa.com

2: Are there any other good polygel and Nail industry procucts / suppliers who are safe, basically effective and affordable?

I apologise if this is covered already, I did search but found no recent posts on this company (past couple off years) and I am new to the forum - I would really appreciate any guidance and insider knowledge as I have so much to learn and customer safety and building trust is my top priority.

Look forward to hearing from you
cheers
Nemi : )

 

[Trinity]

Hi, generally anything freely available on Amazon, eBay, etc is not considered a professional product and as such you will rarely be able to confidently and categorically confirm ingredients, MSD, etc.

Any product that says it cures in any lamp is a red flag, you should have covered 'proper cure' requirements in your course. For further information on that subject see the Pinned Post in the Nails Forum about lamps.

When you break down the cost per service and the costs of repairs, product fail, etc. there really is very little difference in cost but a huge boost to your quality of service and reputation. Clients won't come back if the nails don't last.

Allergy issues are a massive issue currently in our industry, this is down to inferior products, unmatched products and poor education. You are getting the education, don't cheapen yourself by failing on the other stuff.

You don't need lots of products to start, less, good quality, will pay off in the long run

 

[JaxintheUK]

I don't think there's anything wrong with using cheaper products if you are just practicing on fake hands or yourself. I'm poor too and it's frustrating that to make money, you have to have money. I'd be more wary about using it on clients, you never know what allergies people might develop, it may bite you in the bum in the long run.

I think you could get away with it if you use a good professional (branded) primer and base gel coat to protect the nails, but that's just my opinion and probably not shared by most people here lol. I use the Nail Co gels from China, they do contain Hema, so have to be careful applying them over a quality base coat, just don't be sloppy with the product and limit exposure. I have the MDMS and SDS sheets that shows all the ingredients, they seem like a good company and are very prompt at replying to any queries you might have.

I have a Sun brand lamp with dual frequency UV LEDs (365nm and 405nm frequency) I've never had a problem with uncured product using expensive gels or the cheaper ones. Look at the professional (expensive) and non-professional (inexpensive) lamps that are available, you'll find most of them work at these frequencies....do your research though.

 

[Trinity]

No point in practicing with a different product to the one you are going to use full time, they are behave differently, are applied differently and removed differently. Why waste your money buying two types, just one decent one.

Its been reported and proven the SDS from the main Chinese factories (and on the whole most of the brands come from the same factory) are unreliable, on testing many of them contain ingredients not detailed and the amounts quoted are incorrect.

Sandwiching products, or mixing and matching is a dangerous thing to do, even with quality products. The products within a range are formulated and designed to be used together not with others from a different range or brand.

Cheap lamps will only quote the wattage, that relates to the amount of electricity it uses not the light frequency it emits. As detailed in the Pinned Post I mentioned the products will be matched the the light output not the bulb wattage.

This forum is for Professional Nail Technicians and as such we need to uphold the standards demanded by our insurance, clients and training. Using products incorrectly, in contravention to the manufacturers instructions and therefore endangering the health of clients and ourselves not acceptable.

 

[JaxintheUK]

Trinity, may I ask why sandwiching is a dangerous thing to do? If a product is cured properly, then how is it dangerous?

 

[BobSweden]

Trinity, may I ask why sandwiching is a dangerous thing to do? If a product is cured properly, then how is it dangerous?

How would someone know if the product is cured properly, if they use gel polishes from brand X and lamp from brand Y?

It's impossible in this situation for the products to be cured correctly, because the gel polishes and lamp have not been modified to make a correct cure.

This is necessary because the UV brightness of different lamps varies enormously, and also the type and amount of photoinitiator used in different gel polish brands also varies - this means that the mount of brightness needed to make a correct cure also varies hugely.

 

[Trinity]

What Bob said, ovbs, he's our allergy expert

There is no way of knowing if a product is fully cured if you are mixing and matching products and lamps, just because it's hard on the outside doesn't mean it's fully cured. Bit like a cake, it can be burnt on the outside but raw in the middle. Filing off exposes the uncured products to the skin, of the client and tech, plus the particles get thrown in to the air and inhaled.

If you soak off you expose the uncured product within the foil which is potentially all over the skin of the client, fastest route to over exposure.

There used to be a few videos on youtube of people testing various lamps with one gel product, I'm not sure if they are still available or if the manufacturers had them removed. But in some cases the 'cured' product was still actually wet once you cracked open the harded surface.

The absolute explosion of allergy and over exposure symptoms within our industry is both horrifying and dangerous to both clients and techs, this is fundamentally down to poor education and blatant money making with little or no regard to health and safety. Cheap 'universal' lamps, cheap, poorly manufactured products readily available on eBay, Amazon, etsy, etc. to the general public with absolutely no idea what they are buying is at best dangerous and it's worst catastrophic to their health forever.

If you want to see the results of allergy issues, long and short term, join the Nail Tech awareness facebook group.

 

[daniella]

Hi, generally anything freely available on Amazon, eBay, etc is not considered a professional product and as such you will rarely be able to confidently and categorically confirm ingredients, MSD, etc.

Any product that says it cures in any lamp is a red flag, you should have covered 'proper cure' requirements in your course. For further information on that subject see the Pinned Post in the Nails Forum about lamps.

When you break down the cost per service and the costs of repairs, product fail, etc. there really is very little difference in cost but a huge boost to your quality of service and reputation. Clients won't come back if the nails don't last.

Allergy issues are a massive issue currently in our industry, this is down to inferior products, unmatched products and poor education. You are getting the education, don't cheapen yourself by failing on the other stuff.

You don't need lots of products to start, less, good quality, will pay off in the long run

I use all brands from highend to china brands. and the Chinese brands are really not inferior to the expensive top brands. saves you a lot of money especially when starting out. In addition, I have been doing this work for 18 years. and never had any problems with it. The nails just stay neat for 4 weeks on the nails of my clients. and I also mix products gel acrylic from different brands. It's not about the brand, it's about the professional knowledge of the nail stylist.

 

[Trinity]

I use all brands from highend to china brands. and the Chinese brands are really not inferior to the expensive top brands. saves you a lot of money especially when starting out. In addition, I have been doing this work for 18 years. and never had any problems with it. The nails just stay neat for 4 weeks on the nails of my clients. and I also mix products gel acrylic from different brands. It's not about the brand, it's about the professional knowledge of the nail stylist.

Disagree and have given all the relevant explanations, sources to find facts and other resources. Once again I reiterate we are site for Professional Nail technicians and have a duty to stay informed, safe and maintain our integrity.

 

[JaxintheUK]

I use all brands from highend to china brands. and the Chinese brands are really not inferior to the expensive top brands. saves you a lot of money especially when starting out. In addition, I have been doing this work for 18 years. and never had any problems with it. The nails just stay neat for 4 weeks on the nails of my clients. and I also mix products gel acrylic from different brands. It's not about the brand, it's about the professional knowledge of the nail stylist.

Hmmm, not sure about that. There are some unscrupulous companies out there using higher percentages of one (cheaper) product (HEMA) than a more expensive product (di-HEMA). It's not about having pretty nails for weeks, it about the percentage of irritant chemicals used to make that happen. It also about not overexposing yourself or your clients to these products (cross-sensitisers) as well, as they are a trigger to allergies and health problems in the future. Knowledge is power.

 

[BobSweden]

Every business owner has a legal responsibility to perform "due diligence" and to protect the health of the clients (rarely talked about in the nail industry!).

There is the issue of the salon insurance....

In the event of a claim, you can guarantee that most insurance companies will look very carefully that the manufacturers instructions were followed, that the products are legal and that the NT is qualified to provide the service.

If some people want to risk the validity of the insurance policy, this is their choice. But the main priority to running a successful business is avoiding risk and losses - especially those from potential personal liability.

If a business owner has not performed due diligence - and uses products widely known to cause a significant number of allergies in the market would suggest they have not or ignored the risks, then they become personally liable for any losses to the company from a health insurance claim by a client.

 

[daniella]

How would someone know if the product is cured properly, if they use gel polishes from brand X and lamp from brand Y?

It's impossible in this situation for the products to be cured correctly, because the gel polishes and lamp have not been modified to make a correct cure.

This is necessary because the UV brightness of different lamps varies enormously, and also the type and amount of photoinitiator used in different gel polish brands also varies - this means that the mount of brightness needed to make a correct cure also varies hugely.

i am a worked nail technician for 18 years. I use different brands from high-end to cheap brands. And have 1 lamp that can dry UV and LED. And I've never had any problems with curing. not even with black. So I think lamp at the brand is really nonsense, as long as you have a good strong lamp, this is not a problem. You have to be able to work with everything.

 

[Nemi]

Thank you everyone for your support and advice, I am taking it in and there's some things for me to research further here. I think when it come to my course, not everything has been covered as in depth as I would have hoped and I am going to need to continue to educate myself and also take further industry training when I can finance that. Finances are the issue really, I agree it is best to invest in a few excellent and safe products and build from there, but when each colour is around £10/bottle + , never mind all the other kit essentials I need to replenish, it is quite daunting... but we will get there!!
Thank you all, look forward to speaking again soon, cheerio Nemi xx

 

[BobSweden]

Hi Nemi,
You have made the right decision. I receive emails every day from Nail Techs who now wish they had made safer choices because they have developed career-threatening allergies. Owning 300 colours then does not seem such a priority.

Many we can help, but some we can't because they have too many ingredient allergies and their immune system has become hyper-sensitive to any acrylates and methacrylates, even very low allergy risk ingredients used in hypoallergenic products.

Having also owned salons in the past, all of which charged more per service than our competitors, I would also recommend that you decide which kind of customer you want to attract.

We always targeted professional and wealthier women whose main criteria to choose a salon were excellent sanitation, thin well designed reliable nails that suited their workplace, a nice salon environment. These women care about their health, what they eat and exposure to chemicals. If you can attract these customers, you will not have to fight on price with your local competitors and they are very loyal. It's all about creating value in their mind for what you provide.

Part of running a successful business, is finding a way to be unique. My advice, invest in the best education you can get and have a smaller selection of excellent, safer products. Most of your competitors won't do this.

Good education and skills can't be copied by competitors and it is essential to build a reputation that attracts the best customers, without advertising.

xx

 

[BobSweden]

i am a worked nail technician for 18 years. I use different brands from high-end to cheap brands. And have 1 lamp that can dry UV and LED. And I've never had any problems with curing. not even with black. So I think lamp at the brand is really nonsense, as long as you have a good strong lamp, this is not a problem. You have to be able to work with everything.

This is an opinion and you are entitled to that. But it is not based on fact or any accurate knowledge of nail product chemistry. It is a myth created by gel factories and lamp factories who want to sell products to those less informed and who don't care if they develop allergies in the future.

When we started to develop our own products, I was told this by our chemist and I didn't believe it either because 13 years ago, no-one talked about this.

So I bought 14 different UV lamps, all 36W or more, and I tested them all (I'm an engineer by background). The difference in UV brightness between these lamps was enormous and convinced me that what the chemist had said was true.

Yes, if you use an extremely bright lamp then the risk of under curing is low. But unless you have specialist equipment and some knowledge, you can't measure the brightness.

The Wattage of the lamp only describes the amount of electricity used. In my test, some 36W lamps were brighter than the 48W lamps.

Using an extremely bright lamp does reduce the risk of undercuring. But then the risk of over curing and heat spikes is much higher (and risk of onycholysis).

 

[Candijess]

Thank you everyone for your support and advice, I am taking it in and there's some things for me to research further here. I think when it come to my course, not everything has been covered as in depth as I would have hoped and I am going to need to continue to educate myself and also take further industry training when I can finance that. Finances are the issue really, I agree it is best to invest in a few excellent and safe products and build from there, but when each colour is around £10/bottle + , never mind all the other kit essentials I need to replenish, it is quite daunting... but we will get there!!
Thank you all, look forward to speaking again soon, cheerio Nemi xx

Hi Nemi,
My course didn’t cover everything either - I bought a book called The Complete Nail Technician by Marian Newman which I’m busy ready through now. It’s worth the investment - I bought mine on Amazon. Good luck!
Candice

 

[jlsdds]

I was fortunate enough to find a mentor in the business in 1974. She was kind, patient and I owe just about every important thing I know about manis, pedis, acrylics to her.

I worked for 50% commission, kept the salon open on her off days, cleaned, made coffee, answered phones, and basically sat at her left hand watching.

Those years gave me a base of knowledge that I’ve built on with the changing world of beauty products.

Maybe you could find a similar situation.

 

[JaxintheUK]

This is an opinion and you are entitled to that. But it is not based on fact or any accurate knowledge of nail product chemistry. It is a myth created by gel factories and lamp factories who want to sell products to those less informed and who don't care if they develop allergies in the future.

When we started to develop our own products, I was told this by our chemist and I didn't believe it either because 13 years ago, no-one talked about this.

So I bought 14 different UV lamps, all 36W or more, and I tested them all (I'm an engineer by background). The difference in UV brightness between these lamps was enormous and convinced me that what the chemist had said was true.

Yes, if you use an extremely bright lamp then the risk of under curing is low. But unless you have specialist equipment and some knowledge, you can't measure the brightness.

The Wattage of the lamp only describes the amount of electricity used. In my test, some 36W lamps were brighter than the 48W lamps.

Using an extremely bright lamp does reduce the risk of undercuring. But then the risk of over curing and heat spikes is much higher (and risk of onycholysis).

I have never had a problem with uncured product using the 3 different (cheap) lamps, I own. It's about the UV frequency (newton-metre or Nm), the intensity or output, not the brightness. The UV waveband is very narrow, the ones used for a nail gel lamps are usually 360-405nm. Most manufacturers produce UV Leds made to these spectrums 365, 385, 395, 405nm. These frequencies penetrate deeper into the light cured product. Making the formulation of gels that matches the LEDS 350 – 465 spectral range.

 

[BobSweden]

Brightness is a simpler way to explain UV Illuminance, which I explain here:
https://www.salongeek.com/threads/u...-just-won’t-do-updated-september-2019.323988/

 

[NancySyd]

With all due respect, I would caution those of you who say "i have never had a problem with uncured..." or "I've never had a problem with curing..." because the truth is that you really just don't know. Gel hardens at 55% but is only fully cured at about 95%. Unless you have lab equipment, you don't know, you're relying on your observation "curing to the eye." You should also be careful about relying solely on your own experience. Your experience is a tiny, tiny percentage of users out there, not enough to draw solid conclusions. And in comparison with people like Bob, it is a very small group compared to his experience and research. While personal experience is a very valuable thing, it should be used in conjunction with solid research across a large population. Allergies and other problems from uncured products are at an all-time high and we need to take that very seriously. A few brands are having a very difficult time because of these issues.

Finally, you should remember that not using a manufacturer's required lamp means that you are not following the manufacturer's instructions which would immediately cause your insurance company to deny any associated claim. It your business and your reputation, and you can do with it as you wish, but I hope that we would all rely not just upon our own limited experience, but take advantage of the knowledge base that this forum provides.