Beauty therapist administering botox/injecting fillers
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Training is the answer . A & P of the face is the same if you are a nurse or non medical person .l The people working for the NHS blood donor service are "not nurses", but civilians trained to do a specific job, they stick needles into people, so how is it any different for a BT training to inject the facial muscles? doctors have to do the consultation and decide weather or not a client is contraindicated !!
smooth
Well-Known Member
Ok, you may see it as simply shoving a needle in someone's face but it is absolutely not just a case of that. There are varying levels of anatomy and physiology, you start very basic at school then go a bit deeper at college then when you get to university it is very indepth. You start by scratching the surface that's all.
A high level of knowledge of disease and health is required along with being able to manage anaphylaxis which is life threatening. You cannot teach in one day what medically qualified people learn in their 3 - 5 years at university followed by many years of putting their theory into practice.
So is it a good idea for us to say here's some toxin that if you inject incorrectly can prevent someone from smiling even though you've only injected their orbicularis occuli muscle to try to get rid of their crows feet? Absolutely not!
To try to take the justification to phlebotomists is ridiculous! They take blood, which is not really a skill as the vacutainer does the withdrawing. Can they as phlebotomists undertake botox and dermal filler training? No they can't!!
A high level of knowledge of disease and health is required along with being able to manage anaphylaxis which is life threatening. You cannot teach in one day what medically qualified people learn in their 3 - 5 years at university followed by many years of putting their theory into practice.
So is it a good idea for us to say here's some toxin that if you inject incorrectly can prevent someone from smiling even though you've only injected their orbicularis occuli muscle to try to get rid of their crows feet? Absolutely not!
To try to take the justification to phlebotomists is ridiculous! They take blood, which is not really a skill as the vacutainer does the withdrawing. Can they as phlebotomists undertake botox and dermal filler training? No they can't!!
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ashalina23
Well-Known Member
"Also remember that in this country the difference between a seinier practice nurse and a G.P. is one exam!!"
Really - and which exam would this be? I'd love to hear after spending all of the many years (when it got to 13 i stopped counting).
Susie H
Well-Known Member
Why have you felt the need to have a go at me in a pm and post the same thing on here?
I fail to see what your problem is?
My information when I was asking the same question, that I answered for Jason came from my G.P. I assumed that he was talking about a final exam at uni where a nurse who met the requirements to go from nurse to doctor would study. Upgrading your training from nurse to doctor, would mean you would be exempt some of the studys.
You will find very quickly that trolls are not tollerated on this site.
ashalina23
Well-Known Member
A nurse would not be exempt from some of the studies as their "quickest" way of becoming a Dr would be on a Graduate Entry Programme like in Warwick or Derby where they would do 4 years undergrad studying again alongside mature students from all walks of life with no previous background within the medical field.
smooth
Well-Known Member
There are ways of putting your point across without sounding rude, I think that was the point Susie H was trying to say and in fairness she was just imparting information that she received from her GP. Whether that information was correct or misconstrued is irrelevant, you can just state the facts like you have above.
However, I must say that you CAN accredit prior learning, I finished my independent nurse prescribing course at Chester University and for each topic if you had undertaken recent study in that subject you didn't have to attend it. There were 2 qualified pharmacists who didn't have to do the pharmacological lessons as they could APL their pharmacy degree. So if in the 4 year medical degree you had a set qualification in that topic you could put forward an APL request and it would be up to the university to see if they would accept it.
Sitting on the fence though, I think trolls was a harsh thing to call you
(although you could take it as :lol: if you did not have a tendancy to be a serious character)x
ashalina23
Well-Known Member
I get called worse than a troll most days by my hmp patients!
smooth
Well-Known Member
ha ha ha but they are scumbags anyway aren't they? That must be a difficult job having to treat people who have been locked up for commiting some horrendous crimes. Hats off, I couldn't do it.
brow queen
Active Member
Try jim McGrath with Skintech. He really is good at what he teaches. I probably will get some really bad replies. But, seriously not bothered. As you say your are an intelligent individual, so go for it. And your intelligence and knowledge will be challenged, especially with the anatomy and physiology of the face. Yes, you can also your insurance.
But you must be a level 3 bt. I have seen bad botox and filler work done by nurses and dentists, as a bt you can know where to enhance a client.
smooth
Well-Known Member
The bit you will get a bad response about is your sweeping statement towards the end. Doing beauty for a job does not mean you will look at and be able to achieve a greater aesthetic enhancement than a medical professional. It's all about antagonist versus agonist action and knowing about the deeper structures that are not covered in beauty A & P as well as all the other skills that medical professionals obtain whilst studying for years at treating and diagnosing medical conditions.
Yes you can train with Jim, I know lots of people who have spoken to him and they say he is very arrogant. Jim is not a nurse prescriber and therefore CANNOT direct a beauty therapist he trains to administer botox. So that is the first illegal act.
Also, the way you would obtain the product would be difficult. You cannot obtain it by remote prescription, you could never prescribe it and unless you have a prescriber in the same room as you it is impossible for you and the prescriber to be in line with the medicines act, the POM act and the professional governing body of the prescriber. So the second illegal act.
For those injecting now, do you come up with the amount to inject? If so then you are breaking the law as YOU are making a prescribing decision which you CANNOT do and that is punishable by a large fine and/or instant imprisonment. The third and final illegal act, is it really worth looking into it? Just to say as well that non nurse prescribers are breaking the law if they do the above also!
lxj3nkins
Active Member
wow, this has really given me the boost to do what im planning for my future due to all this controversy over who should administer aesthetic injectables.
im a beauty therapist and i love my proffession but i also love the aesthetic side of it to.
because of all the legislation and laws, insurance ect ect that is needed to be able to administer injectables i have decided to train as a nurse for 2 years where i will become registered with the nursing and midwifery union type thing which then 100% legally allows me to train and practice as an aesthetic nurse.
even though i love my proffession and believe in all the training and stuff that ive received in my four years at college and uni, i would know way feel confident to train with a company and then go change someones face! neither would i like someone with my level 5 qualifaction or LESS which is happening near my face with a needle.
i have done some research in to this for uni last year and all evidence i could find said BT's could not legally administer injectables.
im a beauty therapist and i love my proffession but i also love the aesthetic side of it to.
because of all the legislation and laws, insurance ect ect that is needed to be able to administer injectables i have decided to train as a nurse for 2 years where i will become registered with the nursing and midwifery union type thing which then 100% legally allows me to train and practice as an aesthetic nurse.
even though i love my proffession and believe in all the training and stuff that ive received in my four years at college and uni, i would know way feel confident to train with a company and then go change someones face! neither would i like someone with my level 5 qualifaction or LESS which is happening near my face with a needle.
i have done some research in to this for uni last year and all evidence i could find said BT's could not legally administer injectables.
smooth
Well-Known Member
Nursing is a minimum of 3 years not 2 and the NMC is not a union it is a professional body. Just wanted to say that it is good to hear you want to progress in your career and that you would in no way be confident to do a one day training course and go and inject something into a face. Like I said before the illegal part of it is the obtaining and administering botox. It is available only on prescription and as a beauty therapist or non prescribing nurse you cannot prescribe it therefore you cannot get hold of it.
No prescriber will be able to prescribe a dose for someone that they cannot see when it comes to botox and their professional governing body will not allow them to prescribe botox remotely. So it will only be a matter of time before all the remote prescribing stops, even to non prescribing nurses. I hope this clarifies my point that I made in my previous post and what is illegal with regards to bt and other non prescribers doing botox?
brow queen
Active Member
Yes me! I am trained as a bt level 3, and a permanent make up tech. I also trained for the botox and fillers, it's a really good aesthetic procedure to give your clients. You will be advised about insurance. Also a very knowledge of A & P is vital!! It is not against the law for a bt 3 to do the training, as some people think it's just for doctors and nurses, not true!
If you do the training and they think your not good enough, then you will NOT qualify. Hope this helps others.
If you do the training and they think your not good enough, then you will NOT qualify. Hope this helps others.
brow queen
Active Member
I meant a very good knowledge! Oops...rushing my answer
smooth
Well-Known Member
You don't come out with a qualification, you come out with a certificate. I've never said it was illegal what I said was illegal was James McGrath does not have a prescribing qualification so he cannot direct you to administer botox during a training course, only a prescriber (typically doctor but an independent prescriber can do this) can direct someone to administer an injection - this is the law!!
Fillers are a medical device, no law surrounding it as it is not a product that is only available on prescription. Botox however, is a different kettle of fish altogether. This is a prescription only medicine (POM) which has to be prescribed by an independent prescriber on a named patient basis only. James does not have this qualification see nmc website for clarification!
For a patient to have this treatment they need to be assessed by a prescriber (the law), it needs to be prescribed on a named patient basis (the law) unless the person administering is a dr as they can buy wholesale but they cannot supply you with wholesale (the law).
The prescriber can only do a thorough assessment is if they can see the patient (their governing body regulations) and they can direct someone else to administer but only if they are suitably qualified and competent (the law). Now competent and qualified I am not going to bring this up as it will open up a whole kettle of fish that has already been brought up here. What yo have to think about is are you competent after doing a one day (where y ou only inject someone in the afternoon) training course in botox administration? I think not, how many threads have we seen where geeks state that one day nail courses are not enough? The qualified bit, they will look at experts in teh field to question your qualification, they will be a health care professional with an expert witness status.
This primarily is all to do with the way the botox injection is prescribed. When you want a prescription what do you do, you go to the gp get a prescription take it to the pharmacy and get your medication. You cannot give this to someone else. Can you phone up or fax a request to say I need antibiotics? No. A repeat prescription is different. Also, the governing bodies of prescribers are now saying you should not remote prescribe botox so you will be wasting your money training.
You also cannot carry around botox as this is illegal! So anyone who (this includes medical professionals) is carrying around botox on a named patient basis should not. You also cannot inject the remaining units into another client (this is illegal).
Look at the medicines act and POM act along with MHRA guidance on this, this is fact. In the event of a claim it will come into question as to how the product was obtained and were you suitably qualified and competent, after a one day training you will not be competent, this is now coming from regulatory bodies where they are condemning one day training courses.
So whilst it may not be illegal there are legal aspects of it which when you break, as I would go as far as saying the majority are, that then becomes illegal practice which invalidates your insurance. I think the insurance company needs to know that there are ways to obtain the product, they are a bit blind at the moment.
PEPSIMAX
http://www.MyValentus.com/seanabalakrishna
Smooth Well said!
It is illegal to inject botox without a face to face consultation from a prescriber. If the dr or nurse prescriber sees the patient, carries out a consultation, prescribes the botox, obtains the botox, gives written direction to the injector then WHY WOULD THEY LET SOMEONE ELSE CARRY OUT THE INJECTION? Simple answer they wouldn't! I am not arguing if it is fair, if a beauty therapist is capable etc etc...I am simply stating the law. x
It is illegal to inject botox without a face to face consultation from a prescriber. If the dr or nurse prescriber sees the patient, carries out a consultation, prescribes the botox, obtains the botox, gives written direction to the injector then WHY WOULD THEY LET SOMEONE ELSE CARRY OUT THE INJECTION? Simple answer they wouldn't! I am not arguing if it is fair, if a beauty therapist is capable etc etc...I am simply stating the law. x
smooth
Well-Known Member
thank you. I think it is such a shame that these unscrupulous companies with unethical doctors and nurses are taking advantage of beauty therapists who are not aware of all these medicine acts that constitute the law. They are just transfixed on the fact that on the DOH website it states a doctor can direct another person to administer and it states beauty therapists in there about cosmetic treatments BUT when it mentions beauty therapists it states that they are doing chemical peels and not botox etc.
that's why I post on topics like this to let them know that they are breaking the POM act and other medicine legislations and their prescriber is going against their professional regulations.
I think that a large difference between the civilian "sticking needles in people" and a bt administering botox is that the civilian is taking blood from the donor where as the bt would be injecting something potentially fatal (if anaphylaxis occurs) into the client. Without adaquate, appropraite training the bt may not have the skills and knowledge to decide who the treatment is contraindicated for, and how to deal with conta-actions should they arrise. These problems are very unlikely to occur when the civilian takes blood from the donor. And dont forget that they would have had training from a trained nurse, will be insured via nhs indemnity insurance and would usually be in an environment where a trained medical professional would be present. From the posts i have read above the concern appears to be that sometimes this is not the case for environments where botox is being administered.
calander girl
Member
This is all really interesting and obviously makes gets lots of comments?
Im not sure if all you beauty therapists out there who have commented on this thread are aware of a new BT association the CTIA for BT who want to do or who are doing botox and fillers. I assume, but not sure if its launching at the PB show this weekend? Looks like they've teamed up with BABTAC? You have to meet certain criteria, but they have an inspectorate, accredited training, insurance etc in place and even been to see the Health Minister in London. I thought it was illegal for BT to do these treatments? Obviously not
Im not sure if all you beauty therapists out there who have commented on this thread are aware of a new BT association the CTIA for BT who want to do or who are doing botox and fillers. I assume, but not sure if its launching at the PB show this weekend? Looks like they've teamed up with BABTAC? You have to meet certain criteria, but they have an inspectorate, accredited training, insurance etc in place and even been to see the Health Minister in London. I thought it was illegal for BT to do these treatments? Obviously not
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