Why do learning providers in FE not have much respect?

[angelina221]

I own a salon in norh wales and would be delighted to tell you of my experiences . unfortunately they are not positive ones , so much so that I refuse to take any more work experience students.

if I can be of any help, please just pm me.

tigi
xx

I agree. I won't take on any stylists that are college trained and I absolutely refuse to take on any more work experience girls for hair or beauty.
The standard from my local college is extremely poor. They are ok on the theory side but their practical side is poor.
I know colleges have targets to hit but they are passing girls that are nowhere near good enough.
I had one Level 2 beauty student come to my salon for a week. She was doing her level 3 and she asked me what the machine was in the corner of one of my beauty rooms. I told her it was a microdermabrasion machine. Her reply 'Oh we are going to be doing that at college. Well they aren't sure if we will get time to practice but they said they will pass us'.
The sad thing was, I wasn't even surprised.
I'm sure some tutors are great but they are few and far between and I'm not prepared to take that chance in my salon. All stylists must be salon-trained to even get an interview.

 

[Alex-Lydia]

I'm sure some tutors are great but they are few and far between and I'm not prepared to take that chance in my salon. All stylists must be salon-trained to even get an interview.

Sorry to say I completely agree, I do take on work experience girls, and find they are usually lovely, but have virtually no experience on real people and no get up and go. They always seem very 'young' compared to my full time trainees. I have never seen a hairdressing student come out of full time college and not need to be re trained.

I would like to see a big change in hairdressing training, no full time courses but a longer course, maybe 3 years, for all trainees that is paid for by salons and government, with main time and all practical in salon and all theory in college, complete training in ALL aspects of hairdressing, and manufacturers contributing too.

Hairdressing brings a fortune into the economy and is one of the few industries surviving the economic downturn quite gracefully - with more thoughtful investment in training it could grow even bigger and help solve the terrible youth unemployment issue.

 

[Tomme]

I must disagree with college taught not being up to scratch, yes some are useless who come out and attack peoples hair, but there's others, like myself, who tried, tried bloody hard while there. I had 3 years salon experience before college and during level 1, I left to give more time to my theory as well as never receiving a fair wage. Even while working in retail I would do all my family's and friends hair to keep my skills up. I'm making a decent living for only just starting mobile, and iv not had a complaint since leaving college.

This has really upset me the amount of people who have said they won't take on college educated. To them who say that, please do look at salon educated stylists, not all of them are at a exceptional standard.

In the past as a child, iv been to well established salons and had my hair buggered up by the senior stylists, do they really deserve the title? Xoxo

 

[persianista]

I must disagree with college taught not being up to scratch, yes some are useless who come out and attack peoples hair, but there's others, like myself, who tried, tried bloody hard while there. I had 3 years salon experience before college and during level 1, I left to give more time to my theory as well as never receiving a fair wage. Even while working in retail I would do all my family's and friends hair to keep my skills up. I'm making a decent living for only just starting mobile, and iv not had a complaint since leaving college.

This has really upset me the amount of people who have said they won't take on college educated. To them who say that, please do look at salon educated stylists, not all of them are at a exceptional standard.

In the past as a child, iv been to well established salons and had my hair buggered up by the senior stylists, do they really deserve the title? Xoxo

You're right, not all salon trained stylists are great. However, a college trained person has NEVER passed a trade test with me. Many salon trained people have.
I am sure there are college leavers out there who are superb, I just have never met one who is "salon ready". As such, no salon can afford to take them on and retrain them right now, which is sad.
I do take on college leaver therapists and retrain them. Mainly because I get better results that way.
There are a lot of people leaving hairdressing college right now, thinking they are "qualified", then having a horrible experience trying to get jobs as they realise that they are simply not good enough standard for the salon. I feel for them, but a stylist is a big investment, and "I dont do men" or "I need help with certain cuts" is not acceptable in a salon situation.

 

[annie:)]

You're right, not all salon trained stylists are great. However, a college trained person has NEVER passed a trade test with me. Many salon trained people have.
I am sure there are college leavers out there who are superb, I just have never met one who is "salon ready". As such, no salon can afford to take them on and retrain them right now, which is sad.
I do take on college leaver therapists and retrain them. Mainly because I get better results that way.
There are a lot of people leaving hairdressing college right now, thinking they are "qualified", then having a horrible experience trying to get jobs as they realise that they are simply not good enough standard for the salon. I feel for them, but a stylist is a big investment, and "I dont do men" or "I need help with certain cuts" is not acceptable in a salon situation.

I agree with this, i started an apprentiship in a really top notch salon in my area because i knew my training there would be a 100% better than at collage.

After a year i fell pregnant (not through choice, through health reasons). I loved my job and training so said id take 4 weeks off to have the baby. At 5 months pregnant i was scrubbing floors,cleaning windows (all the time breaking off for lovely morning sickness).

My boss bullied me into leaving, she had no children herself and saw it as, you have kids or a career. In the end i left, i was young n couldnt take the constant bullying.

Now i have left i know im too old to be given another apprentiship because iv tried to get one but i will still not go to collage for hairdressing because i know the standards are not the same as they were in the salon as i was training in and i would only ever want to be the best hairdresser, not just a qualified one.

Id give anything for a chance to become a good hairdresser in a great salon but i dont beleive collage would achieve that for me x

Sent from my X10i

 

[mrslargelashes]

Back when I was in college we worked salon classes, but I also had a thursday night and a Saturday day job in a salon while at college. I have to say the type of clients you get in a real salon vs a college salon are a million miles apart.

I think college is important for practising your skills and learning the theory, but just like driving, you don't really learn until you've passed your test. I think college education with salon experience is the ideal. Further education is also important to keep you up to date with the latest skills.

To the OP, I believe there are good lecturers out there. I love massage as my lecturer was so strict, but helpful, yet I hate nail enhancements as my lecturer was lazy. A good lecturer makes all the difference. xx

 

[Wandering Woman]

I am currently training (Hair Level 2) at college (dare I admit to it). We will be undertaking 9 hrs a week of paid client (supervised) work by the end of this month in a formal college salon.

Our tutors have warned us it is rare to pass our practical assessments first time and all our tutors have 20 yrs experience each. I do have to say that sometimes they do praise us when they shouldn't but I think this is to keep our confidence up!

I would continue to point out this is my 2nd career and sadly the new students coming through into my department when I worked for the NHS were also abysmal but I do think its more to do with age and motivation! Certainly in my college the 'adult' class that I am in still has a few girls in that are not motivated and I wouldn't employ!

Saying all this, I am in need of salon experience as I know working in that environment is the only way to develop from the basics. Perhaps salon owners may want to look at the merits of employing slightly older, more motivated individuals!?

This whole thread is really disheartening for me :cry:

 

[angelina221]

You can do more practical at college but it won't make any difference when the syllabus at most colleges is about 30 years out of date!
When I first opened my salon I took a college trained girl on and sent her on L'Oreal's 2 day colour keys course. She told me she had learned more in those 2 days than she had 3 years at college. She also said she felt really stupid cos she had to have everything explained to her. Some of the things that were explained she knew but she knew them by a different name. All the other girls knew what they meant but she didn't so had to have everything explained.

 

[BeautyDiaries]

Btw is Shula still in the hair dept? If she is say congrats on her wedding for me xoxo

I will pass the message on hon and thanks for your comment

 

[BeautyDiaries]

I am currently training (Hair Level 2) at college (dare I admit to it). We will be undertaking 9 hrs a week of paid client (supervised) work by the end of this month in a formal college salon.

Our tutors have warned us it is rare to pass our practical assessments first time and all our tutors have 20 yrs experience each. I do have to say that sometimes they do praise us when they shouldn't but I think this is to keep our confidence up!

I would continue to point out this is my 2nd career and sadly the new students coming through into my department when I worked for the NHS were also abysmal but I do think its more to do with age and motivation! Certainly in my college the 'adult' class that I am in still has a few girls in that are not motivated and I wouldn't employ!

Saying all this, I am in need of salon experience as I know working in that environment is the only way to develop from the basics. Perhaps salon owners may want to look at the merits of employing slightly older, more motivated individuals!?

This whole thread is really disheartening for me :cry:

How do you think I feel?? :-(

I'm trying not to be disheartened though; I do understand where everyone is coming from having been on that side of the fence myself so to speak. But now I'm on the other side in education I'm trying to adhere to the standards as well as let my learners see how I may have done things differently in industry so they learn lots of different techniques

I guess what I'm trying to say is I knew I would get this sort of response I just wasn't aware of how many of you would feel so strongly about it. But please keep your comments coming because I think it will help me to NEVER let my salon standards slip!!

Thanks again guys

Ps I would never in a million years encourage a learner to demand £15 p/h as a wage! Jees if they want that as a basic wage they're in the wrong flippin industry!!!

 

[laurakate]

I would have loved to have done an apprentiship/on the job training. The trouble is that it's much easier to get a place at college than it is on an apprentiship. Also with college, you know that they are commited to ensuring that you complete your qualification whereas someone who takes on an apprentice will have other commitments that means they might not be able to help someone through their training in such a structured way as college.

I have passed and failed trade tests. Doesn't a lot of it come down to what the individial employer is looking for?

 

[furiousfrog]

This whole thread is really disheartening for me :cry:

How do you think I feel?? :-(

I just wanted to add my voice to this. I realise this is probably going to be an unpopular first post, but I'm retraining at hairdressing in my 30's and an apprenticeship wasn't even an option. I spoke to the salon I go to when I was first investigating it and she openly laughed until she realised I was being serious and then the conversation was suddenly very awkward.

So - to hear that people won't even consider college trained students, sounds to me a little... prejudicial? Surely it's best to interview all the decent candidates that apply and then judge them on their own merits, rather than write them off without even looking at whether they have initiative and would be a good employee?

Otherwise it seems there's a strong consensus that, if you don't get in to hairdressing in your teens, then you might as well not bother because the industry won't take you seriously. This seems really age-ist, surely that can't be the case?

 

[emmajane57]

I learned Beauty Therapy at college and feel that students passed to show excellent pass rates rather than skill. When I was taught waxing I learned strip waxing, but all I had to do to get the hot wax part of the module pass was hot wax an area 2" long. I think no college training is as good as learning in a salon environment, but I trained at 22 so would not have got an apprenticeship, but I also think that you gain a more indepth knowledge at college about the skin etc than you do on training courses. My tutors at college were brilliant and had a great deal of experience in beauty therapy, but I do feel that they had to sell themselves short through no fault of there own just reaching government targets lets face it the colleges probably lose funding if they dont have high pass rates.

 

[annie:)]

I think to help solve this the 'minimum wage' needs to be more flexable towards apprentiships(sp).

I would happily do an apprentership for £95 a week and let my partner support us until i qualified, but because of the rules regarding age limits and minimum wage it isnt an option for salon owners to take on anyone over 18.

I also know,given the choice, many salon owners would rather take on an apprentice whos 25 than a school leaver. X

Sent from my X10i

 

[lucelasticx]

As a college trained hairdresser , i would advise any future college educated stylist to think of your NVQ like your driving license. My driving instructor told me he could coach me to pass the test but the majority of learning happens after you have passed your test.

This means that you HAVE to do time in a salon and be in an environment where people can help you out , correct any bad habits and faults. No college can give you as a wannabe stylist the one to one training , time and generally TLC you recieve in a salon.

Also i personally would also recommend that you do a finishing course such as Francesco Groups that tweeks everything from shampooing to cutting and retailing.

Then after that ensure you keep up your CPD every year.

This is why it is so worrying when we see comments like "just finished my NVQ going straight to mobile" so scary as your education has only just begun, and as a hairdresser in my opinion NEVER ends.

 

[persianista]

I just wanted to add my voice to this. I realise this is probably going to be an unpopular first post, but I'm retraining at hairdressing in my 30's and an apprenticeship wasn't even an option. I spoke to the salon I go to when I was first investigating it and she openly laughed until she realised I was being serious and then the conversation was suddenly very awkward.

So - to hear that people won't even consider college trained students, sounds to me a little... prejudicial? Surely it's best to interview all the decent candidates that apply and then judge them on their own merits, rather than write them off without even looking at whether they have initiative and would be a good employee?

Otherwise it seems there's a strong consensus that, if you don't get in to hairdressing in your teens, then you might as well not bother because the industry won't take you seriously. This seems really age-ist, surely that can't be the case?

You raise a very valid point. Can I explain it from a salon point of view?
When you leave college, you will not be "salon ready". A salon would have to start you off practically at the bottom, you would have no "column" skills, and as such would not earn the salon a profit. You would start on full adult minimum wage. Chances are you would have other aspects to your life too such as children which would have to be worked around. It will take at the very least 2 years before you had built up sufficiently to earn a profit for the salon.
Change that to a 16 year old on training allowance, doing models as soon as they learn each module, building speed and "column skills". They get to 18 and qualify. We then pay them 18 year old's minimum wage, which is covered by the money they bring in doing models. They progress to stylist, and are well known to all the clients. They have always worked to the disciplines of a column, and by the time they are 21 and paid as an adult, they have built a clientele, and have 5 years salon experience.

At the moment, most salons are fighting to survive. They cannot take a 2 year loss on a stylist.

Also, those of us who have experienced older trainees have also found that 30 year old women with lots of experience in other sectors find it difficult to accept that an 18 year old may actually know an awful lot more than them about salon subjects. It has often caused conflicts.

 

[Wandering Woman]

At the moment, most salons are fighting to survive. They cannot take a 2 year loss on a stylist.

Also, those of us who have experienced older trainees have also found that 30 year old women with lots of experience in other sectors find it difficult to accept that an 18 year old may actually know an awful lot more than them about salon subjects. It has often caused conflicts.

I understand those concerns, especially with younger people being more experienced than older - I would say thats often down to personality and expectations again. (In my industry) I have had rubbish bosses who were older than me and worked with colleagues significantly younger who were technically amazing and I had loads of respect for them!

As for older students we do cost more! I am looking to volunteer in a salon whilst I do level 2 & 3 so in this climate I would have thought I would be a good bet! After that, I expect to earn a pittance for another 2/3 years and get the worse jobs in the salon (LOL). However,, in several years time I hope to be my own boss (either own a salon/mobile).

Unfortunately this all hinges on a chance someone has to give me! eeekkk!

PS
I think the trainees that post on these forums are probably a little different from the average student so I will absolutely accept that there is a lot of dross (for want of a better word) out there! I just wanted to express my worry that we shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush.

 

[sarahemma]

I have just taken a girl on one day a week, whom is doing her level 3 hairdressing. She went straight into her level 3 after the summer break from level 2. She is a lovelly girl but no way is she level 3 or even level 2. She goes to collage 2 days a week, then in my salon 1 day.The rest of the time she doesnt work. The only hair she does at home is boyfriend and dad and i find in the salon the basics cant even be done. She cannot shampoo very well and had no idea how to remove colour, didnt know how to apply perm lotion even, never mind know how to wind on the block i provided.I have never had 1 phone call or visit from collage in the last 6 yrs of helping students out.
On the many courses ive completed over the years, i to feel the collage will pass anybody just to keep there numbers up as a few students drop off at the start.I really wish the exam standard was a lot higher to meet the needs of the industry's were in.:irked:

 

[Pinkprincess73]

You raise a very valid point. Can I explain it from a salon point of view?
When you leave college, you will not be "salon ready". A salon would have to start you off practically at the bottom, you would have no "column" skills, and as such would not earn the salon a profit. You would start on full adult minimum wage. Chances are you would have other aspects to your life too such as children which would have to be worked around. It will take at the very least 2 years before you had built up sufficiently to earn a profit for the salon.
Change that to a 16 year old on training allowance, doing models as soon as they learn each module, building speed and "column skills". They get to 18 and qualify. We then pay them 18 year old's minimum wage, which is covered by the money they bring in doing models. They progress to stylist, and are well known to all the clients. They have always worked to the disciplines of a column, and by the time they are 21 and paid as an adult, they have built a clientele, and have 5 years salon experience.

At the moment, most salons are fighting to survive. They cannot take a 2 year loss on a stylist.

Also, those of us who have experienced older trainees have also found that 30 year old women with lots of experience in other sectors find it difficult to accept that an 18 year old may actually know an awful lot more than them about salon subjects. It has often caused conflicts.

I have to agree completely with this, it's a sad fact, but salons need to make money to survive, the minimum wage is a problem salon owners just can't get around even if students are willing to work for less.

In my husbands company (not beauty related) we couldn't even consider a mature apprentice as we couldn't pay an adults trade wage to someone making no money for us, it's really sad as every young apprentice we have from college has been lazy & didn't really want a job, we would welcome an older apprentice if the government was able to help In these situations,

My husband was an older apprentice & he got the same wage as boys 4 years younger than him but that was before minimum wage, it's been good for lots of people but clearly not in apprenticeship situations

 

[Tomme]

I'd say the college's do need to take a full portfolio to the interviews to scare off the lazy and cba types, that way there would be more time to go through things that little more thoroughly with the hard workers instead of explaining several times and ending up helping the lazy ones more. I'd have much preferred to have the lazy ones gone so our tutor could have gone into more depth than was required for the course, but as in all education there will be the ones who sap time, energy and drive from the teacher who really wants to see us develop and flourish.

That's where I think my 2nd college was good. You couldn't do level 3 without doing at least a year salon experience to hone in and practice your skills. Not sure about yale's policy on this though.

Xoxo