Underlying pigment, question for hair

[tiatia22]

The colour book, and me, are correct. I promise.

Think about it. Blue is present in black hair, if you bleached it, would that blue be present? No.
If you bleached base 5, would it be red? No, it would be yellow. You would counter the yellow with a violet ash. Green ash over yellow would be nappy khaki.

As long as you create the right amount of lift, you counter the undertone at the level that you reach, not the level you started with.

Eg, if you lifted base 3 to base 5, you would need to counter red as a base 5 would show red undertone.
Base 9 could never hold red. At worst it would throw out a strong gold.

So are you saying all hair that is coloured to a 6 you have to neutralise the orange ,if they wanted a natural shade, no matter what their base was. so all 6's would have a 6/1 ash
all clients that have a 9 you would be using violet on to neutralise the yellow from the 9. so all have a 9/16 violet tone???
I know when bleaching you use the corresponding tone afterwards depending on the warmth left, but i didn't think that applied to tint.
Everyone says so hard to lift a 5 to a 9 cos of all the red ??? ( which is the natural shade before colouring)

 

[donna hair]

I always in for the undertone in the colour you aiming for.

Eg if someone was a natural 6.3 wanting a 9.3 I'd use a 9.0 so i don't add more gold.

If you based it on natural hairs undertone them you'd be using ash on most peoples hair.

I only really use ash for toning and colour corrections.

If you put a full head ash on wouldn't it look like when you see someone who has gone from blonde to dark brown without pre pigging?

 

[tiatia22]

The colour book, and me, are correct. I promise.

Think about it. Blue is present in black hair, if you bleached it, would that blue be present? No.
If you bleached base 5, would it be red? No, it would be yellow. You would counter the yellow with a violet ash. Green ash over yellow would be nappy khaki.

As long as you create the right amount of lift, you counter the undertone at the level that you reach, not the level you started with.

Eg, if you lifted base 3 to base 5, you would need to counter red as a base 5 would show red undertone.
Base 9 could never hold red. At worst it would throw out a strong gold.

Persianista- how would you mix a colour for a base 5 to a base natural 9 (no warmth wanted) are you saying you would be using violet?? dont know what to think been on rusk handbook of colours and alsorts of site and all of them say it's the starting base pigment that we've to neutralise.x:Scared:

 

[persianista]

To lift a 5 to a 9, realistically you would need to use a highlift tint. I would use an ash violet.
If you just used 9 with 30 you would get an orangey 8 at best.

 

[tiatia22]

The colour book, and me, are correct. I promise.

Think about it. Blue is present in black hair, if you bleached it, would that blue be present? No.
If you bleached base 5, would it be red? No, it would be yellow. You would counter the yellow with a violet ash. Green ash over yellow would be nappy khaki.

As long as you create the right amount of lift, you counter the undertone at the level that you reach, not the level you started with.

Eg, if you lifted base 3 to base 5, you would need to counter red as a base 5 would show red undertone.
Base 9 could never hold red. At worst it would throw out a strong gold.

I'm not meaning toning after colour,i wouldn't be putting green over yellow after it's coloured. i'm meaning ammending target colour to neutralise underlying pigment.

 

[tiatia22]

one tip i once got from a course from a fab colorist was .. she never looked at the color of hair as such she always viewed it as being the relevent undertone (red , orange etc.. ) she said it helped her get into her head the info needed to either accent or neutralise the tones x

Dee, was she looking at the natural pigment of their base or what colour they were lifting too?? xx

 

[tiatia22]

Lol, i wont be sleeping tonight , need to get my head around it.why is there so much conflicting advice.
So if where lifting a 4-6 we would be using a 6 blue ash to counteract the orange, not a green ash to counteract the red in the 4? is that correct.xx:Love:

 

[persianista]

Lol, i wont be sleeping tonight , need to get my head around it.why is there so much conflicting advice.
So if where lifting a 4-6 we would be using a 6 blue ash to counteract the orange, not a green ash to counteract the red in the 4? is that correct.xx:Love:

Yup, correct. You got it

 

[chazz!!]

Yup, correct. You got it

persianista i think you should hold an evening training class at you salon i would pay to come for some theory lessons. X

Sent from my GT-P1000 using SalonGeek

 

[Perry_Althair]

Yup, correct. You got it

This doesn't really make sense to me if this is meant to apply to all colour brands as when using spectrum, and I know its the same for matrix, you'd use green when lifting a base with a red undertone, blue when lifting from an orange undertone and violet with lifting from yellow so I'm so confused!

 

[tiatia22]

This doesn't really make sense to me if this is meant to apply to all colour brands as when using spectrum, and I know its the same for matrix, you'd use green when lifting a base with a red undertone, blue when lifting from an orange undertone and violet with lifting from yellow so I'm so confused!

Ha , your not the only one, i've asked same question on another hair forum, and the main man who is very very experienced has agreed with the lady that said it's the target shades underlying pigment that we need to neutralise. x:Scared:

 

[donna hair]

This doesn't really make sense to me if this is meant to apply to all colour brands as when using spectrum, and I know its the same for matrix, you'd use green when lifting a base with a red undertone, blue when lifting from an orange undertone and violet with lifting from yellow so I'm so confused!

Is spectrum like a bleach? So you're toning at the same time?

If it is them won't that work by killing the undertone, then lift the hair rather then tone it afterwards.

I've not used spectrum so not too sure x

 

[snaz]

I'm confused too!! For instance I am a base 6/7. Undertones or orange/yellow. I use Highlift tint with 12%. So you says 12 undertones are pale yellow so voilet would be used to counteract. But why does this not work not work on my hair then, I'm left brassy!!
But if I use the 12 line with a colour which counteract the undertones at base 6/7 which would be green/blue I am left with a cooler blonde not brassy???

I asked wella technical help line and it was then who said it was the base under tone not target!!!

 

[Perry_Althair]

I'm confused too!! For instance I am a base 6/7. Undertones or orange/yellow. I use Highlift tint with 12%. So you says 12 undertones are pale yellow so voilet would be used to counteract. But why does this not work not work on my hair then, I'm left brassy!!
But if I use the 12 line with a colour which counteract the undertones at base 6/7 which would be green/blue I am left with a cooler blonde not brassy???

I asked wella technical help line and it was then who said it was the base under tone not target!!!

this is what ive just been thinking....if this is so, and you take into account the liften undertone then why would tints exists like a highlift with a blue tone because surely you'd never use it, and a base 9 with a blue or a green undertone...if that makes sense? lol

 

[boobaloo]

My understanding is also counteracting the original colours undertone, so yes red and neutralising with green. I have been on lots of colour correction courses and would like to think I am quite knowledgeable when it comes to colour. I've been doing it for 17 yrs. I've been on another course only today and this was again exactly the way they were teaching it.
If Persianista is correct, I will be baffled.
I think there are lots of people confused by undertones. Some people also think that if you are Toning a
Blonde with yellow and orange undertone and you use A/V toner it will go green?! Their thinking is that yellow + blue = green. It doesn't work like that they will neutralise the yellow/orange tones. Ob depending on whether your ash is green or blue based. The only time you would expect a green result is if your undertone is incorrect for the level ie too dark.

 

[tiatia22]

just seen on another site explaining undertones.
If colouring level 3 to a 6 you need to consider the strong red/orange pigments?? (wont that be the 3 )
doesnt help when underlying tones are different in books, internet, hairdressing sites, i have seen 4 as red/orange
then a 4 at red/violet, then a 4 as red???????????????
which is correct for Wella colours.

 

[tiatia22]

• If you want a natural result, start by determining your natural shade/level. Remember that you may only be able to lighten up to two shades with store bought colours (bleach is different). If you are a level 6 (light brown) and you want to be a level 8 (blonde) with a natural result, look at what unwanted pigment level 8 will throw (gold). So you would choose a level 8 colour with an ash tone eg. ash blonde. The ash in the colour will counteract the gold and leave you with a true natural 8 level.
• If you are a level 8 (blonde) and want to be a level 10 (lightest blonde) with a natural result, look at what the unwanted pigment level 10 will throw (yellow). So you would choose a level 10 colour with a violet tone eg. lightest ash blonde. The higher the level, the less counteracting pigment it contains, so even though it may say ash, a level 10 ash is more violet and isn't as strong as a level 8 ash.
• If you are a level 4 (dark brown) and want to be a level 6 (dark blonde) with a natural result, look at what the unwanted pigment level 6 will throw (orange). So you would choose a level 6 colour with an ash tone. At a level 6, the ash is quite strong and will counteract the unwanted orange tones.
• just found this, oh dear need to change my ways.xx
  

 

[LAPirate]

I agree with Persianista. Think we are confusing our theory a little, let me see if I can help!!??
We need to separate out all the products.
When using a highlift tint this product is designed to lift and tone and does not have a balancing base tone so you need to using the corresponding ash tone to your underlying warm tone. (green/red, blue/orange and violet/yellow. the same can be said of affinage spectrum and matrix colour graphics it was also the same with sun glitz powder lighteners that I used many moons ago!
When using a non hilift tint these have a balanced base tone so compensate when you are achieving the desired and achievable lift, you therefore have to compensate for the undercoat at your target shade.

In reality you will not achieve a satisfactory liftof more than 3 levels using a non hilift tint as the tones are harder to control.

The red undertone of a base 4 is in a base 4 not the successfully lightened 4-7 which would have an orange undertone.

May be a bit of a jumble, sorry, I have just finished a thirteen hour day!

 

[boobaloo]

I agree with Persianista. Think we are confusing our theory a little, let me see if I can help!!??
We need to separate out all the products.
When using a highlift tint this product is designed to lift and tone and does not have a balancing base tone so you need to using the corresponding ash tone to your underlying warm tone. (green/red, blue/orange and violet/yellow. the same can be said of affinage spectrum and matrix colour graphics it was also the same with sun glitz powder lighteners that I used many moons ago!
When using a non hilift tint these have a balanced base tone so compensate when you are achieving the desired and achievable lift, you therefore have to compensate for the undercoat at your target shade.

In reality you will not achieve a satisfactory liftof more than 3 levels using a non hilift tint as the tones are harder to control.

The red undertone of a base 4 is in a base 4 not the successfully lightened 4-7 which would have an orange undertone.

May be a bit of a jumble, sorry, I have just finished a thirteen hour day!

Thank you! Yes this makes far more sense. I think it is all getting confused! I was also talking graphics.

 

[LAPirate]

Thank you! Yes this makes far more sense. I think it is all getting confused! I was also talking graphics.

Haha glad it does make sense! My heads a jumble!