Underlying pigment, question for hair

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In Wella if you want to neutralise red/orange tone you would need to use koleston special mix /28 (which contains green/blue pigment) in with a base. If it's just orange tone you could use something that has /8 or /81 to neutralise it. In wella anything with /1(ash) will soften but not neutralise. Hope this helps. :) x
 
maybe it's for someone who has had a red colour and wants the red neutralising.xx:green:





Or someone with blonde hair who wants to look like the jolly green giant.
:D:D:D
 
whats the best shade to use when getting a cool 7 or 8 to neutralise the gold remaining pigment I'M USING WELLA. would you use a violet or blue ash shade as gold is made up from orange and yellow. anyone know if /1 in wella is a blue or green ash?
 
whats the best shade to use when getting a cool 7 or 8 to neutralise the gold remaining pigment I'M USING WELLA. would you use a violet or blue ash shade as gold is made up from orange and yellow. anyone know if /1 in wella is a blue or green ash?

/1 is a mixture of all the colours, I was told if you imagine when you was a child and painted and you cleaned your brush in water, you got the a mixture of muddy colours. (Wella told me this)..
/1 will only soften the tone not neutralise it..
 
*Using wella*
I only read half of this last night, kept dreaming about it and now woke up cant sleep wondering...

I have a client natural base 6.
She wants a natural blonde, say a level 9.
So instead of using a 9 with blue/green (plus 30) to neutralise orange/red undertones of base 6.
I would use a 9 (plus 30) with violet to neutralise some of the 9s gold?
OR
highlift tint?
I would have always neutralised the natural undertones, but if I'm stopping at a 9 do I use a violet highlift?
Or does that just apply to tint?
Or would I get a nicer colour with bleach and a toner?
Too much information my brains too sleepy haha zzzzzx x
 
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The more I think about it the more it makes sense because if I was lifting a natural base 3 to say a 6, i wouldn't use gold id use blue if i wanted to get rid of the warmth. Been up since 4.30 my mind wouldn't shut up! X
 
You'd use a 9 (or 10) with violet tones.
I keep saying, it's not the tones present in the start level, but the tones present at the finished level that you need to tackle.
 
I would say as you are lifting over 2 shades, you are going to get more warmth coming through. I'm not convinced you won't get quite an orangey 9 as opposed to just a gold? If you were lifting within 2 levels then yes I agree with the violet tone, I would personally be opting for a blue ash to kill a stronger orange. Could you do a strand test with both of them?
 
I would say as you are lifting over 2 shades, you are going to get more warmth coming through. I'm not convinced you won't get quite an orangey 9 as opposed to just a gold? If you were lifting within 2 levels then yes I agree with the violet tone, I would personally be opting for a blue ash to kill a stronger orange. Could you do a strand test with both of them?

Thank you both for replying :)

Would be tricky to get a strand test as its just her roots!? She used to have bleach and a toner but she wants to tone it down to a more natural colour.

Last time I used a highlift 12/89, as at the time I was thinking-neutralise orange! :-/
It was still a little brassy at the root for my liking, she didn't mind it but could have been a nicer shade.. X
 
It does seem that every colour line has their own way of formulating for undertones or remaining pigment. I thought I would share a bit about how the undertones are created to help understand the lightening process more.

The Natural Pigments
There are two types of pigment present in all hair, eumelanin is a black or brown coloured pigment that is primarily responsible for depth and pheomelanin which is yellow or orange-red and is responsible for adding golden and red tones to the hair.

It is now generally thought that when the granules of melanin pigment are produced, they are produced in two steps whereby the
pheomelanin is first produced creating a core of yellow/red followed by a layer of brown/black eumelanin.

"The casing model"

Now it might seem obvious that red hair contains very high amounts of pheomelanin, and golden blonde hair also has more pheomelanin than ash-blonde hair BUT if the pigment granules are encased in a THICK layer of eumelanin this can mask the underlying pheomelanin, until you lighten the hair. This can explain why sometimes the hair might look flat, without warmth until you lighten it and tones of warmth is exposed!

Lightening the Hair
When you lighten the hair, the pigments are oxidised in two steps:
Firstly the pigment granules are solubilized by the peroxide, and then slowly dissolved. This initial reaction changes the colour of the eumelanin from black-brown to a reddish-brown. When you lighten dark hair, the undertone will generally be a red-brown tone due to the huge amounts of eumelanin being oxidized.

If you were to continue lightening the hair, and therefore removing the eumelanin, the once hidden pheomelanin becomes more visible, adding orange and yellow tones to the hair. The pheomelanin is more resistant to oxidation, therefore if you are creating a lot of orange when lightening the hair with hair colour, to remove it you would need to switch to using pre lightener which can break the pheomelanin down from orange to pale yellow.

Working with the undertone
There was a lot of discussion regarding if you neutralise that undertone of the natural colour or the desired level, and in my opinion they are both right!

For example if you were lightening the hair from a level 6 to an 8, the classic chart of undertones might tell you that the undertone is yellow- therefore a violet tone would be used to neutralise.
BUT if you can see in the light that there are orange tones visible in the base colour then this means that there is that underlying orange-pheomelanin which will be exposed when lightening so you should use a blue tone to neutralise.

However as explained earlier this is not always easy to see, especially if you are working on dark hair. In this case you can lighten a test piece of hair with a neutral or clear level 10 colour and observe the tones that are being exposed, where it is more yellow, orange or red and then you will know the best tone to neutralise for that individual's hair type.

The final consideration is how intense/saturated the undercoat is, for example the undercoat might be orange but how orange is it? If you were to put it into numbers would it be a soft copper or an intense copper? The intensity of the undercoat will tell you how much ash tone to add into your mixture.
Usually the coarser the hair, the more pigment it contains and therefore the more warmth will be exposed, so on coarse hair you might use a double ash shade, whereas on very fine hair a natural-ash might suffice.
 
You'd use a 9 (or 10) with violet tones.
I keep saying, it's not the tones present in the start level, but the tones present at the finished level that you need to tackle.

My colouring has greatly improved now im considering the target shade remaining pigment not the starting base shade underlying pigment. so glad i started this thread ,been brill.:Love:
my blonde hair is a lovely shade now lol.xx
 
Just thought I'd add this, had a well a colour rec in and she said take into consideration both natural underlying pigment. And target shade underlying pigment. I give up lol. X
 
Just thought I'd add this, had a wella colour tec in and she said take into consideration both natural underlying pigment. And target shade underlying pigment. I give up lol. X
 
It really depends. I haven't read all this thread. I feel you need to neutralise both. Regular hair colour can only lift out the black/brown eumelanin, so technically if you're starting off with orange, when lifting with hair colour the undertone will still be orange. Also take into consideration that if you use blue it'll give a much better neutralisation that violet, as blue is a primary colour and completely cool rather than a mixture of warm and cool it tends to be stronger. Adamlea is so the best person to ask about this.
 
Great thread. The choice is easier with lightner as you can see what pigment is left in the hair and you can choose your neatralizing tone accordingly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using SalonGeek mobile app
 
It really depends. I haven't read all this thread. I feel you need to neutralise both. Regular hair colour can only lift out the black/brown eumelanin, so technically if you're starting off with orange, when lifting with hair colour the undertone will still be orange. Also take into consideration that if you use blue it'll give a much better neutralisation that violet, as blue is a primary colour and completely cool rather than a mixture of warm and cool it tends to be stronger. Adamlea is so the best person to ask about this.

Thank you cams97. Your very helpful, do you mostly consider the stating underlying pigment when you formulate your colour?
 
Aslo, bleach is strong enough to lift the red/yellow pheomelanin out, thats why you don't see red at a level 9 as Persianista said, however if lifting with colour and someones hair is naturally quite red, you would. I know this from experience. You also need to remember that everybody has different amount of pigments, the undertone may be orange but is it really orange or a moderate amount of orange? Hair texture also effects colour selection, coarser hair contains more pigments so you may need to boost your tonal intensity!
 
Thank you cams97. Your very helpful, do you mostly consider the stating underlying pigment when you formulate your colour?


Both! If not every depth i go through! So for a level 5 i would probably use 12/89 with a dot of /28, some /81 and possible some /65. Break it down...
0/28 will help with the red/orange
/8 and /81 will help with that extra neutralisation of the orange, /9 is like a softish violet with the added /65 will neutralise the yellow undertone. When working on darker bases like a 5, theres usually denser pigments so its slightly harder to lift them, i doubt you'd get a clean 9-10 with a highlift on a base 5 though!
 
Both! If not every depth i go through! So for a level 5 i would probably use 12/89 with a dot of /28, some /81 and possible some /65. Break it down...
0/28 will help with the red/orange
/8 and /81 will help with that extra neutralisation of the orange, /9 is like a softish violet with the added /65 will neutralise the yellow undertone. When working on darker bases like a 5, theres usually denser pigments so its slightly harder to lift them, i doubt you'd get a clean 9-10 with a highlift on a base 5 though!

They scare me mix tones I once added tiny bit of violet, to my 9/1 as I had no 9/16 and it went salmon pink, not used them since, which is a shame as I don't have a green ash in my colour house kadus just like wella and also owned by wella X
 
They scare me mix tones I once added tiny bit of violet, to my 9/1 as I had no 9/16 and it went salmon pink, not used them since, which is a shame as I don't have a green ash in my colour house kadus just like wella and also owned by wella X


What that over bleached hair?
 

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