Some healthy tips for professionals

[Debster]

Hi Debbie,

Hopefully my experience, knowledge and reputation have earned me respect here... after all, both www.samuelsweet.com and www.thenailgeek.com are me

Hi Samuel,

For someone who claims to have such extensive knowledge of this industry might I respectfully suggest you think very carefully before responding to my last and final post on this topic.

Skin exposure is a slightly (emphasized) different matter. The amount of exposure that nail technicians and especially clients have to Acetone is so tiny its a total non issue.

The above statement is disappointing coming from someone of your experience. To suggest exposure is "a total non issue" and to couch it in factual terms when it is little more than theory is grossly misleading.
From where are you drawing your scientific proof to back up your claims? because you can be sure wherever that source is, there will be several other sources claiming the opposite.

I have already stated publicly I agree with your earlier analysis and yet you choose to revisit this point and to what end? To prove to the reader that you claim to know more than you actually do or to undermine my point of view, I really can't decipher which?

Suffice to say I wouldn't dare to claim anything I say is fact, and that applies to all of us on here irrespective of how many letters we have after our names.

Overexposure is the real culprit you need to concern yourself with. Any prolonged and repeated exposure above and beyond safety limits is a concern. Acetone and EMA in the salon are not a concern when used as directed. This has been studied to death and has over 25 years of history to prove it.

I refer to my above comment!

Acetone (and EMA for that matter) are not carcinogens (there are actually very very few known 'carcinorgens'). Some people in certain industries had health problems attributed to overexposure to acetone (they were washing and bathing in it upwards of several times a day). That exposure compared with exposure in the salon is... well, not comparable.

You're right, the bathing reference is not a good analogy, you're talking extremes here, and yet in the same breath you continue to draw upon uncorroborated research that is either contradictory or limited in its range. No one member of the medical profession can state unequivocally what causes certain types of cancer and yet you sound as if you are an authority on the subject. I don't know where you're coming from, but that old axiom; "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" could possibly apply.

I am not sure what you are trying to say in regards to the lack of horny layer(?) and high blood flow, etc... The fact is that nail enhancement products are very well studied and declared safe when used as directed. And as the only skin contact comes in the form of enamel removers and plate preparation products, I am not sure what type of health risk there is.

Let's not even go there. It has relevance to the immune system but that's another long debate which I may come back to later if anyone is interested.

Just because something is brilliant at removing enamel doesn't make it dangerous in that context. Potato peelers are so freaking great at peeling potatoes... o dear! Just think what one could do to your nose! Yes, I am being cheeky but I hope it is making my point.

Correction Samuel, your cheekiness is saracasm at its best, hence my mirrored tone thus far. There is no comparison whatsoever to be made between an inanimate object and the risks associated with chemical autoinoculation.

You (sic) references are really vague and unsubstantiated.

You're absolutely right. For fear of sounding arrogant, I am extremely reluctant to use research studies to bolster my position and especially when it comes to chemical research. Too many unknowns, and that you can take as a fact!

Recently, the CIR (an independent arm of the FDA) did yet another study on EMA and actually found that it was safer than even their earlier studies indicated! So safe in fact that most busy salons with little to no ventilation were 100-200 times below safety levels for inhalation exposure. So safe that the FDA has a limited approval on EMA nail enhancement products that can be purchased by consumers!

100 - 200 TIMES BELOW!!!

Samuel, you wouldn't be guilty of the very thing that you seem to take such an issue with; which is members over sensationalising in their threads?
Forgive me for saying so, but the disparity between the figures you've just quoted is so large that I question their validity. I could of course be entirely wrong and won't rule out the possibility that some eminent genius did actually arrive at those figures. It's not that I don't believe you, I just need a little bit more hard evidence that's all?

Now we can sit and play "well, in 50 years they may discover that doing nails makes you grow a third nipple in middle if your forehead" type of scenarios but the reality is that while you were filling up your car with petrol, you put yourself at a substantially higher health risk than you have working all month at the salon (most likely all year).

For the sake of our readers, this another one of your theories, I HOPE!

Your clients? Their exposure is about 80 times lower than yours. You may think your clients have brain damage, but I can promise it has nada to do with their nails.

80 TIMES!!!! I hope this is sensationalism on your part Sam, because one of us is going to come out of this looking very foolish indeed. Somehow clients are now 20% less exposed or is that 120% based on the higher estimate? Whatever! You'll no doubt offer some explanation to explain this disparity because I'm dead curious.

Anyhoo... I hope this helps clarify some issues. My only key concern is that we all need to be careful not to scare people into thinking the sky is falling. The single biggest burden this industry has is the massive amounts of sensationalism and misinformation plaguing it.

Do you know the funny thing I've learned from talking to various friends, including my husband, - who's a psychologist by the way - is that people who are very quick to accuse others of behaving in an objectionable way are actually suffering from that very same tendency themselves. But don't take my word for it, or my husband's for that matter, because I think it's unfair to use his position to add weight to my point of view. Just have a re-read of some of the threads on here and then tell me that this forum doesn't need a very large mirror.

PS- Pseudo Leukonychia is a temporary whiting of the natural nail plate due to temporary dehydration.
(just wanted clarification for others reading )

Well aware that "Pseudo" Leukonychia is as described. You spelt Pseudo incorrectly if you check your last post and since you've now corrected it I'm glad you added that clarification because it made no sense to me either.

Best regards,

Debster

 

[mum]

Debster

I am bothering to respond to this post because it was me who suggested it could be a very useful thread for some interesting discussion on several issues.

Unfortunately it has disintegrated into unnecessary personal targetting.

Sam answered several points in a way that, where possible, referred to evidence (the detail of which would have made the post impossibly long). What would have been useful is a professional discussion on these points if you, or any other reader, had a different view or further questions to ask.

It is a great shame that you have seen fit to attack him personally as well as professionally. What is the point of that? Can no debate or discussion stay as professional and not get personal?

I truly believe he responded to points of yours (that were stated as factual) in the same way I did (and some others) by either clarifying or providing some additional information to question validity. As professionals this is to be expected when you take a stance as an authority on a subject and should be healthy.

I am not going to pick over your post but it is so full of inconsistencies and contradictions that I am sure are obvious to the reader.

I consider your opinions to be valuable but would appreciate your ability to supoort these opinions instead of being 'reluctant to use research' to bolster your stance. What is any of this based on if not research??!!! I for one want to know about any research that is available so I can improve my knowledge.

I really hope that Sam does not block this thread again as you have done one of the major things that this site is so against, and that is become personal which does nothing for your professionalism in my eyes.

This could still be a very useful thread if you and anyone else could join in any discussion in a way that is positive and constructive.

Marian

 

[Urban Geek]

Debster,

I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you filled in your profile x

 

[The Beauty Shed]

Debster

It is a great shame that you have seen fit to attack Sam personally as well as professionally. What is the point of that? Can no debate or discussion stay as professional and not get personal?

I really hope that Sam does not block this thread again as you have done one of the major things that this site is so against, and that is become personal which does nothing for your professionalism in my eyes.

This could still be a very useful thread if you and anyone else could join in any discussion in a way that is positive and constructive.

Marian

Here! Here! I don't think this could have been put any better!

It is a shame that there are a couple of threads on this site at the moment which are, shall we say, unprofessional and unhelpful. I don't see the point in getting personal or arguing over difference of opinion. Let it rest now guys, and thenailgeek will become the helpful, happy place it was a couple of weeks ago once more!

Now for my two pennies worth: I used to work for The Body Shop and I have to say that they use alot of Vitamin E in their products aswell as having a whole product range exclusive to Vitamin E, as do alot of companies. Now I can only speak about The Body Shop products (as I only know factual information about this company and no others), but I can assure you that many many tests are done on all products before they are produced on a mass scale for the public. All of their products are safe and have been proven to work.

I think the scare tactics used earlier in this thread about Vitamin E were unfounded and over-exagerated. It would be helpful if we could all remember that opinions are fine, but scare mongering without fact can be dangerous!

 

[Debster]

Marian,

You are correct, it is unfortunate that it has descended to this but there are some valid points worth mentioning before Samuel does indeed pull another power trip on this thread.
Each of my earlier posts have been dissected beyond the point of professionalism for fear they might upstage the grand geek of them all as someone else described him.

As a professional I find this sort of pedantic dissection extremely provocative. Threads HAVE been closed down by this individual on grounds of sensationalism and yet when you look at the figures he's pulling out of thin air??? Oh for goodness sakes someone is going to have to put a stop to this double standard behaviour before I recommend my students join this forum.

 

[Debster]

Debster,

I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you filled in your profile x

Chris, you're right it probaby would, but right now, if it's not already blatantly obvious, you can see I am spending more time challenging the opinions of moderators who seem to think that what they publish constitutes fact.

Such wild claims are not in the public interest and would never make it past an Editor's desk so therein you have a clue!

 

[Lily]

Marian,

You are correct, it is unfortunate that it has descended to this but there are some valid points worth mentioning before Samuel does indeed pull another power trip on this thread.
Each of my earlier posts have been dissected beyond the point of professionalism for fear they might upstage the grand geek of them all as someone else described him.

As a professional I find this sort of pedantic dissection extremely provocative. Threads HAVE been closed down by this individual on grounds of sensationalism and yet when you look at the figures he's pulling out of thin air??? Oh for goodness sakes someone is going to have to put a stop to this double standard behaviour before I recommend my students join this forum.

Just to add Sam can pull a power trip on this thread if he wants to, it is his site after all, i dont think this is relevant at all to us nail proffesionals. As far as upstaging Sam (GMG) i think thats a tad childish. We are all her to help one another with facts and if Joe Bloggs has some info and backed up by research and was correct then i'm sure sam would be the frist to say wayda go!!!

lets get this back to a proffesional, factual and freindly thread!!!

Amanda

 

[mum]

Marian,

You are correct, it is unfortunate that it has descended to this but there are some valid points worth mentioning before Samuel does indeed pull another power trip on this thread.
Each of my earlier posts have been dissected beyond the point of professionalism for fear they might upstage the grand geek of them all as someone else described him.

As a professional I find this sort of pedantic dissection extremely provocative. Threads HAVE been closed down by this individual on grounds of sensationalism and yet when you look at the figures he's pulling out of thin air??? Oh for goodness sakes someone is going to have to put a stop to this double standard behaviour before I recommend my students join this forum.

Hi Debster

Thank you for replying to me in an unprovcative message.

I do understand that, when so many points one has made for a potentially helpful reason, get 'dissected' it can be provocative. However, because it was me that encouraged Sam to reopen this thread (that I don't believe was closed due to anything you said) for the right reasons, I feel a bit responsible for the attack on him.

Sam has no need of my support as he is more that capable of defending himself but there are comments I would like to make that I believe are relevant. Although I have played many roles in this industry (and been around a while!) for well over 3 years I have been deliberately independant from any product company. I am not a customer of anyone specifically, no one employes me and no one company pays me in cash or product exclusively (by that, I mean that several companies send me products, like polishes, for me to use and recommend if I feel they deserve it). Maybe too much information but, I feel, relevant.

This industry is beset with innacuracies that often originate from 'marketing stories' or brand techniques. Understanding basic fact first then adding the various techniques and product specific information is essential. The differentation will make professionals of us all and result in the removal of confusion. Technology moves on and more reasearch projects is what allows this.

A large number of users of this site are at the beginning of their career and get confused with, not only differing 'facts', but also huge detail. They often need to know quite simple things that only experience brings. For those that are further down the road of experience but still have open minds, discussion on salient points, either as opinions or as a direct result of some interesting research, is fascinating and this should be a great place to facillitate that.

In my opinion, the information in Sam's 'dissection' of your points was factual and supported by hard evidence that I am aware of. If you have evidence that contradicts that, I, and many others, would genuinely be fascinated to hear about it. Different 'facts' are being 'proven' all the time and, as professionals, we should be able to make up our own opinions from an informed stance. I am also big believer that a positive can usually be proven but a negative cannot

I still think it is such a shame you felt the need to personally attack Sam. From my, independant, view, Sam is a knowledgeable, true professional that wants to share with no other (altruistic) motive than a passion for his subject and a desire to make this industry a better place. Yes, he is very connected to a brand, but we all have to make a living and when he answers questions the brand is not an issue, 'fact' is. I personally know many suppliers and have tried to persuade many to come on here and answer queries but not many are prepared to donate that time(nothing to do with Sam's heritage). Shame.

I hope this will not be locked and I hope that meaningful discussion can continue that many of us will learn from. I don't agree with your 'take' on Sam. Look 'outside the box' and see what he is doing with a truly open mind.

Marian

 

[cuticles]

Marian, I think that was an excellent post, as per usual and lots of valid points made for the industry indeed.

Debster, I hope you continue to contribute to the board, however, I would add that it would be useful for you to complete your profile. This function is to allow members to make an informed decision as to the validity of your comments. You have mentioned that you have students yourself, we would love to hear about your journey into the nail industry.

Cathy

 

[Lily]

Hiya,

i have to agree with Marian and Cuticles, Debster your input as a proffesional is greatly accepted as is other contributions from other proffesionals, but please lets have less of the "personal" opinions. Lets keep this freindly:hug:

Amanda

 

[Sassy Hassy]

Surely as professionals we should be promoting retailing professional products such as a good cuticle oil - not vaseline. Retailing is good a) because you know the client is going to be using the right product and not a poor substitute, and b) as a professional, and therefore making my living from my occupation as a nail technician, it will increase my profits.

And for the THIRD time in this thread - WHY SHOULDN'T WE CLIP NAILS? (Hey Jacky we may get a reply, thought I'd put it up again for you hun to see if you finally get an answer!)

 

[Envy]

Whatever about the long term effects of acetone or ethyl acetate; medical experts have even gone as far as to suggest prolonged use of nail extensions can lead to brain atrophy!?! And what does that mean some of you may ask? It means half our clients who wear extensions 24 x 7 are probably brain damaged but the Jury is still out with me on that one!

I truly have to say that this comment is really irritating me and I feel I need to get clarification - Debster, please let me know....

I research a lot into the chemistry and background of a lot of the products we have in our industry, and I have never come across any thesis on the long term effects whatso ever of ethyl acetate.... In fact from one study done on mice at 4,300ppm (if your salon EVER got to that I would be horrified) for 6 hours a day / 7 days a week. NO LIVER OR KIDNEY DAMAGE was found!
http://www.nohsc.gov.au/OHSInformation/Databases/ExposureStandards/az/Ethyl_acetate.htm

To indicate that half of our clients are probably brain damaged is completely unsubstantiated and scare mongering!! Evidence first, then warning!!!

Sassy Hassy - you have repeatedly asked why you should not clip nails... The reason being is it can pinch the nail plate layers leaving crushed cells and an uneven finish. Where as filing will leave an even and smooth end result. Think of cutting a tip with scissors vs filing...
Even so this is pretty minor really... I will happily use manicure scissors and then tidy up with a 240 grit abrasive.

 

[naturalnails]

.....

And for the THIRD time in this thread - WHY SHOULDN'T WE CLIP NAILS? (Hey Jacky we may get a reply, thought I'd put it up again for you hun to see if you finally get an answer!)

I am interested to hear the answer to this too. I did some training with Jessica techniques and we were told that you should clip the nails regularly as this is like trimming hair regularly - it encourages growth.

It just highlights the diffferences in training - who is to say one is right and one is wrong but they are just different.

 

[Sassy Hassy]

Sorry, only mentioned about the clipping because poor Jacky had asked twice and been totally ignored! I was taught that you should clip nails with clippers to shorten them, and not use scissors as this could cause splits down the nail ( not saying if that is right as quite a lot I have been taught in the past has been proved incorrect). I would prefer to clip a long nail if the client wanted it considerably shortened - rather than to just file it right down - then I would file it to get it smooth and perfect the shape.

Great reply Envy by the way, nice to have some substantiated facts!!!

 

[mum]

Hi Geeks

Just came back on to see how this little thread was faring!!

I am really pleased to see that there is some real input on facts (substantiated) and opinions on techniques. (A few comments get a little personal but, hey, we're human. Would be better to avoid this I feel :wink2

I did get a PM with regards to the clipping/cutting question and answered in full. I didn't put any opinion on the thread as I had put my bit in for the time being. Like many others, I am happy to answer any question, if I can, and try to base any answer or physical or scientific fact (sometimes just logical common sense will do but the answer to anything is easy if you know it!!)

I agree with all recent comments on clipping. Although the Jessica method is seen as a difference in training, I don't really think it is. It just needs some clarification. Trimming hair is a very good analogy; the extreme ends get dry and damaged, basically imperfect, and break off. This happens to the free edge of natural nails.

With regards to clipping/cutting, I like to use the analogy of likening a nail plate to ply wood (many layers bonded together). If you cut off the edge using a pinching or scissor movement (even with very sharp blades) the layers get squashed and some can splinter, breaking bonds. This is no problem if the splintered section is gently smoothed away until an undanaged edge is smooth, even and bonds intact. Imagine pliers then fine sand paper on the plywood and you have clippers/scissors and 240 grit (or above) on nails.

Keep going Geeks! This sharing of opinions and discussion of 'facts' is great! We're all learning

Marian

 

[Debz]

Hi all,

I have to say I've been reading this thread with great interest. Have to say I agree that the personal attacks seem a little ott.
Welcome to the site Debster, I don't think your comments have been dissected just as an industry should all therories be questioned then questioned again for clarity?
Although I have passed my first 2 of many nail courses in the past 8 months, I still class myself as a student and as such feel slightly miffed that comments are sometimes made that contradict what hundreds of students are being taught around the country and beyond without any clarification or reserch.
You mentioned that you also have students, would they to not get a little confused?



Debz xx

 

[Nailsinlondon1]

I for one, am glad we are back on topic........
I think it is a real shame that a threat that has great educational protential, is marred by personal issues, somehow the essence of the real thread gets lost this way.......Other facts raised in this post , genuine questions , needed answers, answers that then somehow got lost in all this....and the poor poster wonders if he/she ever gets an answer...

I like, Marian believe in good sound education and don't care who provides it....If it is factual then I will be the first in the cue to get educated.......

My thoughts:
If someone has a personal problem with a reply to a post it would be more professional, to Privat Message or Email the person and try to resolve the issue on a one to one....because the problem will only be relevant to the persons involved, ......this way the forum will stay on topic and will remain a fab education tool for all............

Now back to my Voddy and Orange, it has been a long day lol...........

 

[Jacky]

Sorry, I was being a little facetious, only mentioned about the clipping because poor Jacky had asked twice and been rudely ignored! I was taught that you should clip nails with clippers to shorten them, and not use scissors as this could cause splits down the nail ( not saying if that is right as quite a lot I have been taught in the past has been proved incorrect). I would prefer to clip a long nail if the client wanted it considerably shortened - rather than to just file it right down - then I would file it to get it smooth and perfect the shape.

Great reply Envy by the way, nice to have some substantiated facts!!! Just wondered how my clients would have taken it if I told them they were all brain damaged, think I might have got a :smack: !!!

Aww thanx Sass...but you know...it was an answer I knew...But when someone suggests that a practice Ive been carrying out for the last 8 years is something that...as Debster put NEVER be done...Im thinkin...WHY in a big way.
Debster...you never stated why you believe clipping nails is a no no
actually you still havent.....
Thanks Marian...your analogy is brilliant and easy to visualise. :hug:

 

[Debster]

Marian, I think that was an excellent post, as per usual and lots of valid points made for the industry indeed.

Debster, I hope you continue to contribute to the board, however, I would add that it would be useful for you to complete your profile. This function is to allow members to make an informed decision as to the validity of your comments. You have mentioned that you have students yourself, we would love to hear about your journey into the nail industry.

Cathy

Marian, Cuticles and others who have responded. Thank you all. This debate I think has gone on long enough and I really would love to start talking nails again if that is at all possible?

The upset I will take responsibility for and apologise wherever I have caused offence. I am not accustomed to standing down in the face of adversity, but there are so many really kind and good people on here I think it is the most appropriate thing to do at this stage.

Sam got my back up by being so pedantic, hence my reaction, but when you live with a shrink who promotes open and uncensored debate, the rules of engagement do tend to get blurred at times.

Cathy, to answer your question as to how I got into this industry; following graduation from Beauty College, I worked for brands such as Clinique, Estee Lauder, Guinot and Clarins.
I went on to work in Australia and co-authored the NSW Government sponsored nail curriculum for the region having researched the subject till I was blue in the face.

On returning to Ireland I setup the first home-study e-learning course in association with a multi-media company called EML. So far we've spent hundreds of hours just developing the concept but I won't bore you all with the details as EML, thankfully, have carried most of that burden.

Gotta go dinner is on and I'm trying to watch BB at the same time

Best wishes
Debster.

 

[Nailsinlondon1]

LOL Debster,
now you on my wave length ...dinner and then BB..........sounds ok don't it...........
It was nice to read a little about you, so now you are not just a name but hey I can see you have a passion for this too.........

Thanks for sharing xx