Chair renters work hours

Lottieanne9

New Member
Looking for some advice on chair renters .
I have a chair renter who constantly books work In up to 3/4 hours after the salon is closed.

I understand self employed is self employed and they should be able to work there own hours but this seriously disrupts other areas , for example the cleaner quit because she would book her clients in late meaning the cleaner had to work around her working making it harder for her to clean .


I currently open and lock up I am a single parent with a child so I have to disrupt my little girls bedtime to lock up.

Can I tell said stylist salon hours only ?

Thanks in advance
 

salonfrog

Accountant for salon owners
Absolutely. You are renting a chair to them. You decide the hours as you are the landlord. During the hours you rent the chair, they can come and go as they please of course. Ensure this is in their contract. If not, redo their contract.
 

Lottieanne9

New Member
Absolutely. You are renting a chair to them. You decide the hours as you are the landlord. During the hours you rent the chair, they can come and go as they please of course. Ensure this is in their contract. If not, redo their contract.
Thank you
 

Haircutz

Super Moderator
Staff member
I disagree because that’s imposing your salon hours on their independent business.
When renting, the landlord usually provides a key and you choose your own days and hours.

Under the HMRC guidelines

Section 2 Access

1. Ideally, there would be separate access to that part of the salon in which the business of the
Contractor is situated.
2. The Contractor to have access to their business at all times and have the ability to be open for custom
at any time of their choice.


Can you not provide a key?
 

TheOracle

Member
I agree with salonfrog with the caveat that at least 1 late night is a must.
My salon that I rent from did have 2 lates a week, on days I could have chosen to work on. For me that didn't work so my work hours are the salons working hours.

If you don't have elasticity in late nights then you may need to look for another renter or give her a key. But it is your business and your belongings so if you don't want her there without you and you don't want to have to come away from your own life then rethink this arrangement.
 

Lottieanne9

New Member
I agree with salonfrog with the caveat that at least 1 late night is a must.
My salon that I rent from did have 2 lates a week, on days I could have chosen to work on. For me that didn't work so my work hours are the salons working hours.

If you don't have elasticity in late nights then you may need to look for another renter or give her a key. But it is your business and your belongings so if you don't want her there without you and you don't want to have to come away from your own life then rethink this arrangement.
Thank you for your response,
I offer 3 late nights , but her nights a creeping to 9:30pm now more and more often which is way too late .
I do offer keys to everyone but I also have an alarm system and shutters that only have one remote which is where I come in more and more .

It's nice to hear a point of view from a chair renter themselves thank you
 

Lottieanne9

New Member
I disagree because that’s imposing your salon hours on their independent business.
When renting, the landlord usually provides a key and you choose your own days and hours.

Under the HMRC guidelines

Section 2 Access

1. Ideally, there would be separate access to that part of the salon in which the business of the
Contractor is situated.
2. The Contractor to have access to their business at all times and have the ability to be open for custom
at any time of their choice.


Can you not provide a key?
I completely get that , and this is where I think the lines blur abit too much from both points of view .

I personally struggle with the concept of having my name on a premises,having the daily headaches, etc etc to have very little say over what time the salon doors close .

In shopping centres there is a contract between retailers in which they close there doors at the time the centre does ?
I'm wondering why this is different in a rent a chair buisness ?

Definitely food for thought and I appreciate the reply
 

TheOracle

Member
Thank you for your response,
I offer 3 late nights , but her nights a creeping to 9:30pm now more and more often which is way too late .
I do offer keys to everyone but I also have an alarm system and shutters that only have one remote which is where I come in more and more .

It's nice to hear a point of view from a chair renter themselves thank you
Then I'd tell her to toe the line of your current t opening hours (as long as your contract allows). Btw a contract can be varied, although if you do need to do this get proper HR advice.

She has plenty of access to work her business and you have a valid reason to limit access outside of these hours.
 

Tanning_Beauty

Active Member
I own a salon and I’m quite strict with my renters. I tell them in advance what I expect ( work my hours, no groupon etc) they then have the choice to accept or not.
It’s YOUR name above the door and regardless of her rights the buck ultimately stops with you x
 

Haircutz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Then I'd tell her to toe the line of your current opening hours (as long as your contract allows). Btw a contract can be varied, although if you do need to do this get proper HR advice. She has plenty of access to work her business and you have a valid reason to limit access outside of these hours.
I own a salon and I’m quite strict with my renters. I tell them in advance what I expect ( work my hours, no groupon etc) they then have the choice to accept or not.
It’s YOUR name above the door and regardless of her rights the buck ultimately stops with you x
That’s simply not true. In the U.K., there are guidelines to be followed when renting out space to an independent contractor.
You cannot just make up your own rules and assume that you have full control just because you own the salon, otherwise you risk the taxman declaring it a Sham Employment arrangement.

HMRC (govt. body with extremely wide ranging powers) can investigate your salon at any point without notice and they will determine whether the contract terms are reasonable or too restrictive. If they decide they are too restrictive they will prosecute and fine the salon owner (leading to a criminal conviction) and require the owner to pay the chair renter the equivalent of outstanding wages for the entire period that they’ve been renting a chair.

 

Tanning_Beauty

Active Member
My renters have separate till, their own card machine. There is no way they could be looked at as an employee.
My contracts have my expectations in there. If renter doesn’t agree then the contract wouldn’t be signed by them or me.
Never had a problem.
 

TheOracle

Member
Ok, so let's take a scenario posed by Lottieanne9.

You own/run a salon within a shopping centre and are able to rent chairs out. The shopping centre has specified trading hours that you have agreed to open, and if you don't follow this you can be fined.

Your renter wants to work outside of those agreed hours. Would you agree to this, risking a fine and breaking a contract with the centre, or would you agree that the renter can work only within those specified hours?

Does your renter have greater working rights than anyone else within that salon, or that shopping centre?

There can be some confusion around being deemed properly self employed which is risking ones own financial security, and some arbitrary salon owners who want it all their own way.
But this scenario doesn't seem to ask that question.

A contract is an agreement that both parties enter into and agree with. If in this case there isn't an written contract, then one can be agreed.
If the custom of all the other workers, employed or not, is to work within opening hours then a single renter can't argue that regularly working later is what usually happens.

HMRC and other appropriate bodies do indeed have guidelines but they are not complete rules that cannot be adjusted.

Maybe Lottieanne9 could speak with the National Federation of Hairdressing (NHF) or similar trade body. My rental contract is a standard issue from them and I don't recall there being a problem with specifying opening hours (I can't find it so can't quote).
If anyone has a copy to hand it would be great to see that bit from it, or a similar contract.
 

Haircutz

Super Moderator
Staff member
My renters have separate till, their own card machine. There is no way they could be looked at as an employee.
My contracts have my expectations in there. If renter doesn’t agree then the contract wouldn’t be signed by them or me.
Never had a problem.
I can see why you would want to do this and ordinarily, I think its a good idea to include plenty of detail within a contract.
However, equally, you could come unstuck because it could be used as evidence against you of exerting undue control over how they run their own independent business.

I’m just pointing out how these things can be looked at from other angles, but it’s HMRC who will decide.
 

salonfrog

Accountant for salon owners
I disagree because that’s imposing your salon hours on their independent business.
When renting, the landlord usually provides a key and you choose your own days and hours.

Under the HMRC guidelines

Section 2 Access

1. Ideally, there would be separate access to that part of the salon in which the business of the
Contractor is situated.
2. The Contractor to have access to their business at all times and have the ability to be open for custom
at any time of their choice.


Can you not provide a key?
Thanks @Haircutz. I don't think Section 2 you quoted from the HMRC/NHBF guidelines is as literal as that.

The salon is offering to 'rent' a space or chair within its amenities during the times that the salon is open. As long as there is a contract in place, the 2 businesses are entering an agreed between themselves for a mutual benefit. Both businesses are entering the arrangement with their 'eyes wide open'.

Section 2 is one of many sections that HMRC can fall on to get an overall picture of the arrangement between the two parties. I don't think it unreasonable that the Salon rents the chair/space during certain hours each day. It would be hard for HMRC to use this argument, especially if the majority of the other points in the arrangement are in place (eg. their own card machine, own accounting in place, right of substitution, right to work whenever they want within the rental hours each day etc).
 

Tanning_Beauty

Active Member
How can my contract be used against me when it explicitly says what I will agree with and it’s signed by renters?
They have willingly entered into the contract.
 

Haircutz

Super Moderator
Staff member
How can my contract be used against me when it explicitly says what I will agree with and it’s signed by renters?
They have willingly entered into the contract.
Just because an agreement has been entered into willingly by both parties doesn’t automatically make it legally enforceable.
Only the courts can decide that issue.
There is plenty of case law where the courts have overturned a contractual agreement, often in cases where the proprietor has drafted some of the terms themselves without taking legal advice.

Did you pay a solicitor to write your contracts?
 

Tanning_Beauty

Active Member
Just because an agreement has been entered into willingly by both parties doesn’t automatically make it legally enforceable.
Only the courts can decide that issue.
There is plenty of case law where the courts have overturned a contractual agreement, often in cases where the proprietor has drafted some of the terms themselves without taking legal advice.

Did you pay a solicitor to write your contracts?
I have a law degree so no.
 

Jacque123

New Member
I have a law degree so no.
It does sound like you wrote your own contract. lol... you should pay an active legal attorney to provide you with the legal facts and adhere to the law. Don't go cheap, spend the money now or spend it later when you are sued.
 

TheDuchess

Well-Known Member
Hi Tanning Beauty. Have a chat to your insurer, you’d be surprised how helpful their legal advice helplines are. It’s well worth getting an opinion on whether your chair rental agreement is placing you at risk of being deemed the employer.

As I’m sure you realise, you can’t dictate too many terms - otherwise you are exercising employer like control. But that does not mean your renter can do whatever they like. You can rent your chair by the hour if you wish

if you’ve covered contract law, you’re perfectly competent to consider the risks of the contract you've drawn up, but you won’t have any way of knowing HMRC thinking and the way employment law is applied in a tribunal, which can change from year to year.

It’s worth getting an opinion on your contract from a specialist accountant and/or solicitor who specialises in hair and beauty clients to check both the HMRC and employment tribunal angles. Worst case, you could end up with a chair renter demanding back holiday pay, pension contributions and redundancy from you and HMRC demanding employers national insurance. In that context, it’s worth investing in professional advice.

What is important is that your contract represents what is actually happening. If you have a contract with specified hours and you’re not enforcing them, it makes the contract look sham and could potentially invalidate it. So this is certainly something that needs to be resolved.
 

Jacque123

New Member
My renters have separate till, their own card machine. There is no way they could be looked at as an employee.
My contracts have my expectations in there. If renter doesn’t agree then the contract wouldn’t be signed by them or me.
Never had a problem.
This isn't a classroom where you can do whatever, this is real life in the business world and there are established laws you have to follow. Do not be so blunt to think you can really run things in a wreckless way. Follow the law, go get advice from a real attorney and stop acting as if you should be the booth renter instead of an owner.
Be open to the fact that you are wrong, operating illegally and opening the business up to liability risk. Not a boss move. Humility in large doses could help you before the booth renter's tell you to piss off.
 
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