Underlying pigment, question for hair

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Haha glad it does make sense! My heads a jumble! ;)

I think you hit the nail on the head by saying its not a simple answer there are several depending on the product. As you say when using a colour you generally only lift a couple of shades and they are pre adjusted to counteract the undertones anyway.

Highlifts and graphics etc work differently :)
 
thankyou , so with highlift look at the starting base underlying pigments
eg 6 orange so use 12/1 blue ash
with tints 6-9 you would use 9/16 ash violet for the warmth from the 9 the target shade.
think i understand it.
is this right for a wella user for underlying pigments.
5-red
6-red/orange
7-orange
8- yellow/orange
9-yellow
10- pale yellow
:Dxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
I agree with Persianista. Think we are confusing our theory a little, let me see if I can help!!??
We need to separate out all the products.
When using a highlift tint this product is designed to lift and tone and does not have a balancing base tone so you need to using the corresponding ash tone to your underlying warm tone. (green/red, blue/orange and violet/yellow. the same can be said of affinage spectrum and matrix colour graphics it was also the same with sun glitz powder lighteners that I used many moons ago!
When using a non hilift tint these have a balanced base tone so compensate when you are achieving the desired and achievable lift, you therefore have to compensate for the undercoat at your target shade.

In reality you will not achieve a satisfactory liftof more than 3 levels using a non hilift tint as the tones are harder to control.

The red undertone of a base 4 is in a base 4 not the successfully lightened 4-7 which would have an orange undertone.

May be a bit of a jumble, sorry, I have just finished a thirteen hour day!

;)

Yep I understand now lol, still dont really get why you would have a green ash on a tint higher than a 6 though bearing in mind what you've said lol
 
Yep I understand now lol, still dont really get why you would have a green ash on a tint higher than a 6 though bearing in mind what you've said lol
maybe it's for someone who has had a red colour and wants the red neutralising.xx:green:
 
Tiatia22 I've actually read the same thread has what you put in here, great mind think alike lol!!

I think that I am getting to grips with it too now, so with tint it's the target shade underlying pigment and with Highlift it's the base you start with.. Am i right???

I think with coloring is trial and error specially with blondes, cause you can put one colour on one client with the same base as another and use same shade and it will come out different!!

I'm glad it was me who just didn't get confused!! Lol
 
Tiatia22 I've actually read the same thread has what you put in here, great mind think alike lol!!

I think that I am getting to grips with it too now, so with tint it's the target shade underlying pigment and with Highlift it's the base you start with.. Am i right???

I think with coloring is trial and error specially with blondes, cause you can put one colour on one client with the same base as another and use same shade and it will come out different!!

I'm glad it was me who just didn't get confused!! Lol

No i think quite a few thought the same as us,last year alone i went on kadus colouring course also Fudge, Matrix, Joico, lol, trying them all out.And not one trainer went in to detail about underlying pigment, they mentioned it and showed the red, orange,yellow, but failed to mention it was target pigment to look for not natural starting shade, because they call it natural underlying pigments makes you think the clients own natural pigment at the shade they are.Glad i mentioned it on here though, lol, as i would of never known.xx:irked:
 
Tiatia22 I've actually read the same thread has what you put in here, great mind think alike lol!!

I think that I am getting to grips with it too now, so with tint it's the target shade underlying pigment and with Highlift it's the base you start with.. Am i right???

I think with coloring is trial and error specially with blondes, cause you can put one colour on one client with the same base as another and use same shade and it will come out different!!

I'm glad it was me who just didn't get confused!! Lol

It's a bit of a devil when Wella tec get it wrong too, ha ha .
 
No i think quite a few thought the same as us,last year alone i went on kadus colouring course also Fudge, Matrix, Joico, lol, trying them all out.And not one trainer went in to detail about underlying pigment, they mentioned it and showed the red, orange,yellow, but failed to mention it was target pigment to look for not natural starting shade, because they call it natural underlying pigments makes you think the clients own natural pigment at the shade they are.Glad i mentioned it on here though, lol, as i would of never known.xx:irked:

yep i have noticed this too .. i quizzed one of the teachers and i think its basically so you go do your masters with whichever brand you use .. then you learn all the extra stuff ..
 
Yep I understand now lol, still dont really get why you would have a green ash on a tint higher than a 6 though bearing in mind what you've said lol

Titian can be up to level 8, thats why you have green ash at level 7 or 8, to get a flat colour at that level.

Ok, good way to explain this. Say you have a bit of black hair, and you bleach it to blonde. The hair would pass through the following tones at the following levels:
1-2 blue
3-5 red
6-7 orange
8-10 yellow.

At that level 9 you would be faced with a yellow piment that you would need to correct. Opposite on the wheel is violet, so you would use that.
If you stopped it at level 6, you would get an orange pigment, so you would use a blue ash.
Stop it at 5 you need a green ash to get a flat 5 etc etc

This idea that it works on the starting colour of the hair is wrong. The exception is of course when you are colouring darker, the tones to prepig with are the tones present in the level you are darkening to, and all those between.
EG, you got bleched white hair, to darken to an 8 you need to add gold.
To darken to a 6 you need to add coppergold.
To darken to a 5, you need to add red, copper and gold.


Now sit back and wait for someone to say WRONG!!!!
 
Persianista has this spot on.

For what it's worth I teach the VRQ Level 4 Advanced Hair Colour Theory Courses too.

A few points were raised in this thread that I hope I can help with:

1. Why would you need a level 9 tint with anything except violet if the underlying pigment will always be gold? Because hair colour is individual - your aim is not to make everyone a 'flat level 9', but to decide if you'd like to enhance or neutralise the NRP (natural remaining pigment). If you want to enhance the NRP at level 9 (which is yellow) you can choose level 9 colours with gold tones or copper tones (such as 9.3). If you want to neutralise you would choose level 9 with violet. If you want to cool it down you would choose level 9 with ash.

2. Why do I need a highlift tint with ash to prevent my level 6 hair looking brassy - when I use violet it is still warm? Because highlift tint is not like bleach - it doesn't keep lifting the longer and longer you leave it on. Highlift tint might claim to lift upto 4 levels, but that doesn't mean 4 levels on everyone's hair type - you need to think about your hair-type, texture and tenacity when colouring and not just NRP.
Level 6 hair that is poker straight, thick and tenacious will be more difficult to lift than wavy, very fine hair purely due to the amount of product required to get through the cuticle and saturate the cortex. After 45 minutes on the more tenacious hair you would probably find that the hair has lifted only 2 true levels (leaving behind a yellow orange NRP). On the fine hair you will find it has lifted 4 levels (leaving behind a pale yellow NRP).
When we bleach hair we take this for granted - checking every 10 minutes. A highlift tint is basically a bleach with toner built in. Also, remember that placing highlift tint under heat opens the cuticle (allowing faster lightening) but also makes the colour formula more acidic (making it harder to tone successfully after the lift is achieved) - so sometimes, patience is key.

3. Why do they have green tones is the likes of Spectrum/Graphics etc? Similar reasons to the above really. Graphics is advertised as lifting through to blonde in just 12 minutes under heat. In reality it lifts as much as it can in 12 minutes and relies on you choosing the right pigment to "correct whatever is left". On level 5 tenacious hair Graphics lifts to anywhere between a 7 and 8 in 12 minutes. The NRP is orange towards orange/yellow.
That's why you would use - GREEN - for the best results.
WTF? Did he just say GREEN? Why not 'blue' or even 'blue and violet'?
LOL.
Sorry to confuse you. Think about what colours make up green - blue and yellow right?
OK, so the Graphics has lifted all of the hair strand to somewhere between a level 7 and level 8 (i.e. orange and orangey yellow) - but it's not even though. The ends might be a level 7 (orange, maybe even a little bit orangey red in places) and other areas might be an orangey yellow (just like when you bleach hair in one go).
Where the hair is orange, it will absorb the blue pigment from the green toner, leaving behind the gold reflect - hence making a 7.03 (rather than a flat 7.0). Where the hair is orange/yellow it will absorb less of the blue pigment from the green toner, leaving just enough behind to slightly cool the yellow pigment, thus making a 7.03 result on the midlengths too.
This is why if you look at a Graphics shade chart all of the "green" examples look like a golden result when used on level 5 hair.
If you had used the blue pigment on level 5 instead of the green you would have ended up with an uneven result (roots looking lighter than the ends).


Hope the above clears things up and helped to answer some of the questions raised. :)
 
Titian can be up to level 8, thats why you have green ash at level 7 or 8, to get a flat colour at that level.

Ok, good way to explain this. Say you have a bit of black hair, and you bleach it to blonde. The hair would pass through the following tones at the following levels:
1-2 blue
3-5 red
6-7 orange
8-10 yellow.

At that level 9 you would be faced with a yellow piment that you would need to correct. Opposite on the wheel is violet, so you would use that.
If you stopped it at level 6, you would get an orange pigment, so you would use a blue ash.
Stop it at 5 you need a green ash to get a flat 5 etc etc

This idea that it works on the starting colour of the hair is wrong. The exception is of course when you are colouring darker, the tones to prepig with are the tones present in the level you are darkening to, and all those between.
EG, you got bleched white hair, to darken to an 8 you need to add gold.
To darken to a 6 you need to add coppergold.
To darken to a 5, you need to add red, copper and gold.


Now sit back and wait for someone to say WRONG!!!!
ha ha ,i believe you. When doing high lift though, do you look at starting base pigments then,as stated earlier.
if someone is having a highlift and their a base 7 would you use 12/1 because of the orange in the 7??
Also do you know why when i colour a 5 or 6 on white hair it goes a golden cast, i've tried with some ash in ,tried 20 vol, 15vol,10 vol, but it's still too warm, clients were originally very dark before they went white, could they still have hidden underlying pigment in there. thanks sweetie.xx:green:
 
Just to add - you don't need to remember your NRP if you just accept that hair colouring follows the rules of nature that exist all around us.

Every day when the sun rises the sky turns from blue/black of night to light gold of the midday sun - but it does it in stages. The horizon (or sun) appears to turn dark red, lighter red, red orange, orange, orange/gold, gold, light gold.

And at sunset (i.e. client going darker) it does the same in reverse.

NRP works just like the sun rising and setting. It never changes.

xx
 
Confusing or what!!!B]2. Underlying Pigment - Use it or Lose it?[/B]

Let's say your client is a natural level 6 and their desired color is a level 9 ash. The underlying pigment of a level 6 is red-orange, so in this case you will have to 'loose' the red-orange pigment. If your client wants a desired color that is warm, then you could 'use' the underlying pigment in your favor.
make no wonder where confused ,just found this now on 10 steps to perfect hair.
 
Well I don't know who to believe lol!! This is a second email from wella and they are still saying its the clients base underlying tones. Think it's a case of trying it both ways and see which works best!!

Dear Nicola,

Thank you for your recent email.

I am unsure of which books or media you are using for reference but I have stated previous the way in which Wella Professionals teach neutralising undertones.

When you are lifting natural hair, regardless of the depth you are wishing to achieve, you always use a counteracting tone to neutralise the clients natural depth if they do not want any warmth to be apparent.

If a client is a natural depth 7 the undertone will always be a yellow/orange, therefore if you are lifting natural hair you must take into consideration warmth is going to be exposed and use a violet or blue ash tone to help counteract depending on the desired shade the client wants.

The counteracting tone is not decided on the underlying warmth of the colours depth you are looking to achieve. It is based on the underlying tone of the natural hair.
 
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Ok can't both party's be right??

If you are to neutralise the undertones at say base 7 you would be using a blue/violet so all unwanted tones will be removed as it was being lifting.

But also if the hair was lifted to a 10 you would use violet so violet wouldn't work on the underlying pigment present at the clients natural base (7 orange/yellow) but has the colour is lifted to the yellow at this time the violet will kick in and work counteracting the yellow!

Just a thought, then this would be the answer to various sites contradicting each other!!!
 
Ok can't both party's be right??

If you are to neutralise the undertones at say base 7 you would be using a blue/violet so all unwanted tones will be removed as it was being lifting.

But also if the hair was lifted to a 10 you would use violet so violet wouldn't work on the underlying pigment present at the clients natural base (7 orange/yellow) but has the colour is lifted to the yellow at this time the violet will kick in and work counteracting the yellow!

Just a thought, then this would be the answer to various sites contradicting each other!!!
oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I could cry, spent 2 days on this and have been told both ways:irked::irked::irked::mad::cry::cry::cry:
 
oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I could cry, spent 2 days on this and have been told both ways:irked::irked::irked::mad::cry::cry::cry:

I'm not saying that it can be done both ways ? I could be wrong , after all I have only just gone back into colouring!! And it's making my head a shed to lol!! But it seem feasible don't you think!!
 
This is from another hairdressing site, the guy who is in charge of the site, and excellent hairdresser, these are his views


You have to consider the underlying pigment of the level you are lifting to, not from.

So if you are at a level 9 the you take that underlying pigment into consideration, not the level 5 you are pulling from.

Most color lines compensate for this within their formulas, so a level 9 ash isn't going to do much for a level 5 underlying pigment:hug: oh help:cry:
 
How Hair Is Lightened

Farouk-50_250h.jpg
[CENTER
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Since it has been established that the 'new' color is a combination of your old color level and tone (referred to as our 'base' color) and the new color that is deposited into the hair, you must take into account what happens when you lighten or lift the base color to another level and deposit the new pigments into the hair shaft.
When hair is lightened it goes through several stages of lightening from the darkest to the lightest from a base of blue in the case of natural black to pale blonde with the palest of yellow as its base color.
This lightening process fractures the color pigment creating undertones that are unwanted.

This says creating so you would think that was at target colour, not starting base colour. might just be a lollipop lady.:irked:
 
Hope this helps (a picture of our shade chart explains it perfectly ... Look at the top right corner) xx
 

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