Underlying pigment, question for hair

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Think about it this way ;
If you were colour removing on a client who had been tinted black and you were left with a red undercoat would you be thinking about using a base 7 ash?? No because an ash on base 7 wouldn't be man enough to neutralise it! If you are lifting with a tint it will always lift thought the levels first before depositing fully! ;)
 
my poor brain :(

LOL.

Shall we take it back to basics for a sec ... even I got confused reading the thread back.

OK...

Step 1 - Peroxide lightens hair. When it lightens hair it reveals the 'natural underlying pigment' in the hair. 10 Vol lifts 1 level, 20 Vol 2 levels and so on.

So therefore, if a client has a natural base of level 5 and you apply 20 vol peroxide it will lift her hair 2 levels - to a level 7 and reveal an orange 'natural underlying pigment'.

Step 2 - Clients don't usually like how this looks so you can mix something called tint with the peroxide and it 'colours over' the orange. Whether you mix a red level 7 or a blue level 7 or even an orange level 7, the result you get is always the 'Natural Underlying Pigment + the tint you selected' = Finished result.

examples : Client has natural base 5 and you use 20 vol on her hair.
Gold Level 7 tint + Orange undercoat = Golden copper level 7 result.
Blue Level 7 tint + Orange undercoat = Neutral Level 7 result.
Orange Level 7 tint + Orange undercoat = Intense Copper Level 7 result.

If you mixed any of those tints with 30 vol you would get a different result because the 'natural underlying pigment' would have been lifted one level lighter (to level 8 - yellow/orange).

That's it in a nutshell.

Peroxide lifts and reveals the natural underlying pigment, and the tint deposits colour molecules that can either enhance or neutralise the result you got.

:)
 
Hope this helps (a picture of our shade chart explains it perfectly ... Look at the top right corner) xx
i would of loved to have seen this, but even at 400% i cant read it, it goes all fuzzy, but thanks for trying,xx:D
 
i would of loved to have seen this, but even at 400% i cant read it, it goes all fuzzy, but thanks for trying,xx:D

bugger! hang on ... brb
 
Did it work?
 

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Seems to be working OK now (I uploaded the small version by mistake earlier) :o
 
Oh thanks, thats put my mind at rest. xx:D

My pleasure.

I think it's easier for me as NONE of my colours are pre-made. We're an Aveda salon and they only do bases and pure tones.

If I want a level 7 with gold, I have to grab a tube of 7N and then work out what tones to add as well as which undercoat I would be neutralising (formula for that by the way would be 40grams 7N 8grams Light Yellow Orange 4grams Light Blue Violet and 8G Light Natural Natural (if also covering grey).

I don't get to just go to a cupboard and mix a 7.3 with 20vol and see what happens LOL. xx
 
My pleasure.

I think it's easier for me as NONE of my colours are pre-made. We're an Aveda salon and they only do bases and pure tones.

If I want a level 7 with gold, I have to grab a tube of 7N and then work out what tones to add as well as which undercoat I would be neutralising (formula for that by the way would be 40grams 7N 8grams Light Yellow Orange 4grams Light Blue Violet and 8G Light Natural Natural (if also covering grey).

I don't get to just go to a cupboard and mix a 7.3 with 20vol and see what happens LOL. xx
bloodyhell you've got patience, id be rocking in a chair some where if i had to do all that.lol.x can i please ask about the high lift rules regarding undertones? and why it glows orange when i colour white hair a 5 or 6 base, pretty please.xx:sad:
 
bloodyhell you've got patience, id be rocking in a chair some where if i had to do all that.lol.x can i please ask about the high lift rules regarding undertones? and why it glows orange when i colour white hair a 5 or 6 base, pretty please.xx:sad:

Sure. Which line are you using?

Also, do you use the double naturals when covering grey (usually labelled .00 or sometimes 66/00? Give an example of a client (% white, what you mixed it with and how long developed). I'm sure we could give it a go xx
 
My pleasure.

I think it's easier for me as NONE of my colours are pre-made. We're an Aveda salon and they only do bases and pure tones.

If I want a level 7 with gold, I have to grab a tube of 7N and then work out what tones to add as well as which undercoat I would be neutralising (formula for that by the way would be 40grams 7N 8grams Light Yellow Orange 4grams Light Blue Violet and 8G Light Natural Natural (if also covering grey).

I don't get to just go to a cupboard and mix a 7.3 with 20vol and see what happens LOL. xx

i am sooo glad i dont use aveda .. kudos to you , i know its an excellent line but i couldnt cope with that , lol
 
Sure. Which line are you using?

Also, do you use the double naturals when covering grey (usually labelled .00 or sometimes 66/00? Give an example of a client (% white, what you mixed it with and how long developed). I'm sure we could give it a go xx
aww thanks so much for sharing.i trained years ago and so much has changed.
a fellow geek on here was saying highlifts you have to look at the natural starting base as they lift and tone, so if you coloured a level 7 you would use 12/1 blue ash,Yes???
white hair coloured between 5 and 7 leaves a golden hue, used with 20 vol. then tried 15 vol and 10 vol lower peroxides showed less golden ,but were a bit translucant. my hubbys always goes golden on white areas i mix 5/0 and 6/1 20 vol and lower, still has warmth in. tried /00 there a bit better but still that slight glow in the light, can white hair have hidden pigment in.All clients it happens to were naturally very dark bases.
 
i am sooo glad i dont use aveda .. kudos to you , i know its an excellent line but i couldnt cope with that , lol

It certainly makes things interesting on a colour correction that's for sure! Results really are amazing though, and the creativity it allows is second to none xx :)
 
no doubt , i sit in awe when i see master colorists do their thing , i was gonna do the aveda course in toronto but i chickened out , lol will stick to matrix for now till i have everything to do with coloring stuck there in my head , lol
 
aww thanks so much for sharing.i trained years ago and so much has changed.
a fellow geek on here was saying highlifts you have to look at the natural starting base as they lift and tone, so if you coloured a level 7 you would use 12/1 blue ash,Yes???
white hair coloured between 5 and 7 leaves a golden hue, used with 20 vol. then tried 15 vol and 10 vol lower peroxides showed less golden ,but were a bit translucant. my hubbys always goes golden on white areas i mix 5/0 and 6/1 20 vol and lower, still has warmth in. tried /00 there a bit better but still that slight glow in the light, can white hair have hidden pigment in.All clients it happens to were naturally very dark bases.

12/1 - so you're a Wella girl I am guessing?

If you think of a highlift tint as a level 10 tint with a sprinkling of bleach in it (that's not how they're made by the way, but the chemical make-up is very similar) you start understanding them a bit more. So let's call it "10 and half point 1" instead of "12.1" - after all, there is nothing lighter than a base 10, right?

On some clients with a natural level 7 hair you could apply a regular 10.1 and it would be beautiful. On others, it would go 'warm' - yet they both start off with exactly the same undercoat, so therefore, relying on the natural undercoat alone doesn't make sense. You are far better thinking about the undercoat you need to lift to in order to achieve the best results (even with highlift tint) and go from there.

Check the hair type, texture and tenacity for an indication of how difficult it will be to remove the natural underlying pigment and you'll be OK. If you don't do this, you may as well just apply 12/1 to every new level 6 client and hope for the best - never knowing exactly what you'll get ("will it be brassy / will it be OK?"). Some of my colour bills are £200+ so I couldn't get away with that, hence checking the the 3T's (Type, Texture and Tenacity) at the start of the service help me decide if I need to bleach and tone or if a hi-lift tint will be satisfactory.

Everytime I do that though, I am thinking about what it will take to get a pale yellow undercoat and whether I want to enhance or neutralise it when I get there - wherever I'm starting from. Hope that helps a bit.

Regarding the grey/white problem - some people's "white hair" isn't truly white at all. It still contains very small amounts of pheomelanin is some instances (usually in people who previously had very dark hair) and is undetectable to the naked eye. Their eyebrows usually give a clue - do they have the odd dark hair mixed in? If so, the chances are that their hair will contain pheomelanin in small amounts (especially if they are under the age of 65), and this can be oxidised with peroxide and tint. The best way around it is to colour as usual using a double natural base and then around 5 minutes before removal mix an ash colour at the same level with warm water and apply over the top of the colour - it will only be absorbed by the warm pigment and rejected by the artificial hair pigment.

The other things working against you are environmental factors (smoking etc) and one which many people forget - the colour pigments used in shampoo, styling products and conditioners - such as waxes which are yellow in colour, or cream coloured shampoos. These can build up on the hair and produce a 'brassy cast' too.

Hope that helps.

xx
 
12/1 - so you're a Wella girl I am guessing?

If you think of a highlift tint as a level 10 tint with a sprinkling of bleach in it (that's not how they're made by the way, but the chemical make-up is very similar) you start understanding them a bit more. So let's call it "10 and half point 1" instead of "12.1" - after all, there is nothing lighter than a base 10, right?

On some clients with a natural level 7 hair you could apply a regular 10.1 and it would be beautiful. On others, it would go 'warm' - yet they both start off with exactly the same undercoat, so therefore, relying on the natural undercoat alone doesn't make sense. You are far better thinking about the undercoat you need to lift to in order to achieve the best results (even with highlift tint) and go from there.

Check the hair type, texture and tenacity for an indication of how difficult it will be to remove the natural underlying pigment and you'll be OK. If you don't do this, you may as well just apply 12/1 to every new level 6 client and hope for the best - never knowing exactly what you'll get ("will it be brassy / will it be OK?"). Some of my colour bills are £200+ so I couldn't get away with that, hence checking the the 3T's (Type, Texture and Tenacity) at the start of the service help me decide if I need to bleach and tone or if a hi-lift tint will be satisfactory.

Everytime I do that though, I am thinking about what it will take to get a pale yellow undercoat and whether I want to enhance or neutralise it when I get there - wherever I'm starting from. Hope that helps a bit.

Regarding the grey/white problem - some people's "white hair" isn't truly white at all. It still contains very small amounts of pheomelanin is some instances (usually in people who previously had very dark hair) and is undetectable to the naked eye. Their eyebrows usually give a clue - do they have the odd dark hair mixed in? If so, the chances are that their hair will contain pheomelanin in small amounts (especially if they are under the age of 65), and this can be oxidised with peroxide and tint. The best way around it is to colour as usual using a double natural base and then around 5 minutes before removal mix an ash colour at the same level with warm water and apply over the top of the colour - it will only be absorbed by the warm pigment and rejected by the artificial hair pigment.

The other things working against you are environmental factors (smoking etc) and one which many people forget - the colour pigments used in shampoo, styling products and conditioners - such as waxes which are yellow in colour, or cream coloured shampoos. These can build up on the hair and produce a 'brassy cast' too.

Hope that helps.

xx
that really really helps, can you come and live in my pocket, then i can get you out when i need you,lol. oh would you always use 20 vol on the white hair? thankssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:D:D:D:D:D
 
that really really helps, can you come and live in my pocket, then i can get you out when i need you,lol. oh would you always use 20 vol on the white hair? thankssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:D:D:D:D:D

As white hair tends to be more tenacious than natural hair then yes, I would say that 99% of the time I would use 20 vol.

Exception is a client with very soft fine white hair (feels silky) in which case 10 vol would be sufficient - or chemically processed white hair of course.

:)
 
As white hair tends to be more tenacious than natural hair then yes, I would say that 99% of the time I would use 20 vol.

Exception is a client with very soft fine white hair (feels silky) in which case 10 vol would be sufficient - or chemically processed white hair of course.

:)
thanks, i'll let you get to bed, sorry about all the questions, i could go on and on.but i wont,ha ha .night.xx:D
 

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