Colour help with Kadus professional colour

[Absie]

I use Kadus colour, they are the baby sister to Wella and I've always found the result identical and the numbering system is the same here in the UK.

Today I had a client with Virgin hair, level 6.

She wanted a very natural looking ombré and wanted it cool and not warm...or in her words 'ginger'
So aiming for....her natural base 6, mids 7/8, ends 8/9.

I selected

10/16 + 9% for the ends (lightest shade) (10/Ash violet)
10/8 + 7/0 1:1 + 9% for the mids (10/Pearl)
And kept her natural shade at the roots

The end result was beautifully melted I together...

BUT

Really really warm and quite dark. I csnt beleive it's not lift at all.

I'm new, and building my business so I was totally honest with her and said I was surprised and it wasn't my intended result, and she's coming back on Monday

The only thing I can think of is that the minor tone of violet has kicked out some warmth..and that I should have used a 10/81 (10/Pearl ash)

So, now I'm faced with the issue that I'm. It starting from scratch, but correcting this.
The client doesn't want bleach on it...I had considered a cleansing bleach bath to remove toner.

The only thing I can think of is the use a high lift 12/81 (12/Pearl ash) with 12%
I have taken a test cutting, and given it a go...but being nervous half washed away down the sink...)shake my head.) It looks cooler but I'm shocked it doesn't really look lighter.

Can anyone else think of what I can do....?

I do have special mix tones of /11 0/28 and 0/88 but of course I'm quite nervous now on how much of a special mix to add.

 

[cassies97]

You need to pull out the bleach... Don't worry its your friend.

The fact its dark is due to your shade selection and developer strength, its too low.

The warmth is also due to those. The shades you chose don't have enough neutralisation for lifting from a 6 and because your developer wasn't strong enough you haven't achieved the lift and thus the tone isn't dense enough for the darker colour.

And it wouldn't look lighter with 12/81 and 12% as colour can't lift colour. The 12% would cause unnecessary damage.

 

[Absie]

You need to pull out the bleach... Don't worry its your friend.

The fact its dark is due to your shade selection and developer strength, its too low.

The warmth is also due to those. The shades you chose don't have enough neutralisation for lifting from a 6 and because your developer wasn't strong enough you haven't achieved the lift and thus the tone isn't dense enough for the darker colour.

And it wouldn't look lighter with 12/81 and 12% as colour can't lift colour. The 12% would cause unnecessary damage.

Ok...so,we were aiming for a mid depth of 7/8 and the ends an 8/9
As that's only 2/3 levels of lift I thought 9% was ok...?

So would you have used 12% on both formulas....?

So what shades would you have chosen to start with...?

And what would you suggest to do now...you mention bleach...but what....? A bleach cleans to remove tone....?

 

[cassies97]

Ok...so,we were aiming for a mid depth of 7/8 and the ends an 8/9
As that's only 2/3 levels of lift I thought 9% was ok...?

So would you have used 12% on both formulas....?

So what shades would you have chosen to start with...?

And what would you suggest to do now...you mention bleach...but what....? A bleach cleans to remove tone....?

If you were aiming for an 8 then why did you use a 10?

Bleach doesn't clean to remove tone. A bleach dissolves the melanin pigment on the hair. I'd balayge with bleach and tone.

 

[Absie]

The reason i used level10 when aiming for level 8 was because of the level of her natural base. You don't use level ten to achieve level ten regardless of the starting base level right...? Or maybe I've not explained it very well....?

Regards the bleach...Wella taught us a few different methods for using beach baths/cleanses...a cleansing bath to gently lighten hair, and a cleansing rinse to remove some tone but no lightening. I don't have the details to hand but the ratios of developer, water, shampoo and bleach were different with all of them.

Thanks for the suggestion of a Balyage with toner after, and for your time with suggestions.
I guess I was just hoping there was a solution which didn't involve bleach as my client said they don't want bleach.

 

[cassies97]

The reason i used level10 when aiming for level 8 was because of the level of her natural base. You don't use level ten to achieve level ten regardless of the starting base level right...? Or maybe I've not explained it very well....?

Regards the bleach...Wella taught us a few different methods for using beach baths/cleanses...a cleansing bath to gently lighten hair, and a cleansing rinse to remove some tone but no lightening. I don't have the details to hand but the ratios of developer, water, shampoo and bleach were different with all of them.

Thanks for the suggestion of a Balyage with toner after, and for your time with suggestions.
I guess I was just hoping there was a solution which didn't involve bleach as my client said they don't want bleach.

Of course you use a level 10 to achieve a level 10... What else would you use?

The pigmentation decreases with each depth as you get lighter. If you lift to an 8 you need an 8 as this is the only depth that has enough tone to neutralise the warmth on an 8.

I think you're probably referring to the gentle cleanse and mild lightener. The gentle cleanse is 1 part blondor and 2-3 parts water, this removes tone but not depth. The mild lightener is 1 part blondor and 4 parts pastel and can be used to lift however its not suitable for what you're doing as its a very loose consistency and you need a thick product to paint on and provide you with a soft blend.

 

[AcidPerm]

@cassies97 is 100% correct.

If you wanted to achieve an 8 from a level 6, you need to use a level 8 tint, not a 10 or higher. It's formulated to have the correct amount of tone to neutralise hair that has lightened to a level 8.

It's like putting half a teaspoon of orange squash into a tall glass of water and expecting it to taste orange.

You've effectively diluted the tint product far too much.

Also, when the client requests no bleach, it means you need to use the consultation to educate them on why using bleach is the best way to achieve their aims without compromising their hair.

Bleach + 6% versus highlift tint + 12% for instance.
12% is twice as damaging!

I'm a little surprised that you don't already know this, to be honest.

 

[Absie]

@cassies97 is 100% correct.

If you wanted to achieve an 8 from a level 6, you need to use a level 8 tint, not a 10 or higher. It's formulated to have the correct amount of tone to neutralise hair that has lightened to a level 8.

It's like putting half a teaspoon of orange squash into a tall glass of water and expecting it to taste orange.

You've effectively diluted the tint product far too much.

Also, when the client requests no bleach, it means you need to use the consultation to educate them on why using bleach is the best way to achieve their aims without compromising their hair.

Bleach + 6% versus highlift tint + 12% for instance.
12% is twice as damaging!

I'm a little surprised that you don't already know this, to be honest.

Thanks for the response, in terms of bleach, we've always been told that colour, even highlift tint with 12% is less damaging than bleach. As colour adds colour pigments, where as the bleaching process is taking the colour molecules away so leaving the hair more compromised.

And we've a,ways used the colour chart as a guide only. I've never had a result turn out like this. The end result has always been as we expected.
However, many times a clients hair doesn't look the colour in the chart because it totally depends on their base colour and tone.

Mixing a level 10 and a level 7 basically gives me an 8.. So I use 9%.... I've been taught 9% is for 2/3 levels of lift. So I used 9% to lift to a level 7/8. Why is this wrong? I don't understand how this is diluting the product...?

I don't mean to be a pain but I really need to understand this.

 

[cassies97]

Thanks for the response, in terms of bleach, we've always been told that colour, even highlift tint with 12% is less damaging than bleach. As colour adds colour pigments, where as the bleaching process is taking the colour molecules away so leaving the hair more compromised.

And we've a,ways used the colour chart as a guide only. I've never had a result turn out like this. The end result has always been as we expected.
However, many times a clients hair doesn't look the colour in the chart because it totally depends on their base colour and tone.

Mixing a level 10 and a level 7 basically gives me an 8.. So I use 9%.... I've been taught 9% is for 2/3 levels of lift. So I used 9% to lift to a level 7/8. Why is this wrong? I don't understand how this is diluting the product...?

I don't mean to be a pain but I really need to understand this.

Melanin pigment has no benefits to the health of the hair.

 

[Pancakes]

I guess absie you are overthinking haircolour. When using the colour wheel it only works so so.
It is correct that warmth can be subdued/masked while lifting with ash/pearl etc.
However it won't lift to a cool result and as the pigments fade it will turn warm again. Haircolour does not lift as much as lightener. So to have cool/neutral results you need to use what lifts you high enough and then tone.
I would foil her with bleach and 20 vol. starting off in different heights leaving her natural, then go back and lighten all lengths left in between.
After rinsing first tone roots/midlenghts, lastly ends.
As cassies said tint won't lift tint so bleach is the only option to get a cool result. It's not that bleach damages the hair but the incorrect usage/overprocessing. Olaplex helps though. There is no use in using something different if it doesn't give you the desired result! If you don't want any damage don't colour at all.

 

[AcidPerm]

Thanks for the response, in terms of bleach, we've always been told that colour, even highlift tint with 12% is less damaging than bleach.

That's interesting and very worrying at the same time.
Worrying, in that who on earth is teaching students this nonsense?

Ok, I think this might be helpful to you.
This is copied and pasted from an excellent previous post by our very talented (L'Oreal expert), @adamlea87
------------------------------------------------------

"Here is a chart I have saved from way back, and I'm not sure what line it even originally comes from, so definitely don't apply it to your colour line, but I though I would post it to demonstrate why this can happen.

Level - Pigment Weight
10 -3-4 units of pigment
9 -8 units of pigment
8 -10 units of pigment
7 - 15 units of pigment
6 - 25 units of pigment
5 - 40 units of pigment
4 - 75 units of pigment
3 - 100 units of pigment
2 - 125 units of pigment
1 - 150 units of pigment

If you take the maths equation a step further, mixing a level 7 with a level 5 (15 units + 40 units = 55 /2 = 27.5 units) would give you a colour slightly darker than a level 6. I'm not saying for one minute that you should start using this chart in your mixing, it's just to demonstrate why mixing levels isn't always perfect when you go too far apart.

To help understand mixing different tones, I found that studying pure-tone colour lines such as Aveda really helps to understand. This is a simplified version of how the line allows you to add amounts of pigment at different levels:

If you imagine a 'true' level 8 gold would have 6 grams of gold, and a 'true' level 7 copper would have 8 grams of copper, you can see why mixing tones on different levels will influence the final tonality. It also helps you to understand that the amount of tone in a natural/soft dark colour, would appear as strong or intense if a lighter level had the same amount of tone.

Again I am not suggesting you use this chart with other brands, because they are all buillt differently - it's just to illustrate a point (hope I haven't made it more confusing ) "

 

[Grace_Hair]

Tbh. It sounds like I got taught in a similar way to Absie. Eg use a level 10 to achieve an 8 on a base 6 or below.

 

[AcidPerm]

Tbh. It sounds like I got taught in a similar way to Absie. Eg use a level 10 to achieve an 8 on a base 6 or below.

Really? I wonder why?
Did it make sense at the time?

I worry that with so many brands producing ready mixed tints with tone that the true art of colouring will be gradually lost.

 

[cassies97]

Tbh. It sounds like I got taught in a similar way to Absie. Eg use a level 10 to achieve an 8 on a base 6 or below.

To be honest it can be done, a 10 has a lot more ammonia so more lift but if you don't balance the tones the result will be awful!

 

[Grace_Hair]

Really? I wonder why?
Did it make sense at the time?

I worry that with so many brands producing ready mixed tints with tone that the true art of colouring will be gradually lost.

To be honest it can be done, a 10 has a lot more ammonia so more lift but if you don't balance the tones the result will be awful!

I guess I figured they were lecturers they knew more than me and wouldn't teach wrong.

I've never been massively confident with my colouring... I guess my amazing college education is the thing to thank for that!

 

[Absie]

That's interesting and very worrying at the same time.
Worrying, in that who on earth is teaching students this nonsense?

Ok, I think this might be helpful to you.
This is copied and pasted from an excellent previous post by our very talented (L'Oreal expert), @adamlea87
------------------------------------------------------

"Here is a chart I have saved from way back, and I'm not sure what line it even originally comes from, so definitely don't apply it to your colour line, but I though I would post it to demonstrate why this can happen.

Level - Pigment Weight
10 -3-4 units of pigment
9 -8 units of pigment
8 -10 units of pigment
7 - 15 units of pigment
6 - 25 units of pigment
5 - 40 units of pigment
4 - 75 units of pigment
3 - 100 units of pigment
2 - 125 units of pigment
1 - 150 units of pigment

If you take the maths equation a step further, mixing a level 7 with a level 5 (15 units + 40 units = 55 /2 = 27.5 units) would give you a colour slightly darker than a level 6. I'm not saying for one minute that you should start using this chart in your mixing, it's just to demonstrate why mixing levels isn't always perfect when you go too far apart.

To help understand mixing different tones, I found that studying pure-tone colour lines such as Aveda really helps to understand. This is a simplified version of how the line allows you to add amounts of pigment at different levels:

If you imagine a 'true' level 8 gold would have 6 grams of gold, and a 'true' level 7 copper would have 8 grams of copper, you can see why mixing tones on different levels will influence the final tonality. It also helps you to understand that the amount of tone in a natural/soft dark colour, would appear as strong or intense if a lighter level had the same amount of tone.

Again I am not suggesting you use this chart with other brands, because they are all buillt differently - it's just to illustrate a point (hope I haven't made it more confusing ) "

thanks for all that info
th level pigment chart s super useful...i see now how adding and dividing does not always create the same level..similar...but far enough away to make a difference in some cases for sure...so thanks.

so the pure tone chart is little baffling to me.
i now understand that the lower the level the more grams of tone in a colour...which is why a levels 1/ and 2/ there is little difference in the tones as they arr so very very dark...where as on the level 10/ of course they are vastly different.
but ther than that...i cant wuit get my head around it...i need more info to study i think.
BUT...i think you are saying if my level 7/0 was a 7/16 and was mixed with a 10/16...i would of had a more appropraite result...more like a 8/16 or 9/16
it was mixing the different tones and levels that caused the problem...?

if you have an websites with this kind of information on tht i can study i would be greatful.

 

[Absie]

Really? I wonder why?
Did it make sense at the time?

I worry that with so many brands producing ready mixed tints with tone that the true art of colouring will be gradually lost.

i think this is very much the case unfortunately. i would simply love love love the change to really dive in and learn a lot more about colour....but the courses just do not cover this these days in such depth

 

[Absie]

To be honest it can be done, a 10 has a lot more ammonia so more lift but if you don't balance the tones the result will be awful!

i really need to learn more about the tones. do you have a resource you can point me towards...?

 

[Absie]

I guess absie you are overthinking haircolour. When using the colour wheel it only works so so.
It is correct that warmth can be subdued/masked while lifting with ash/pearl etc.
However it won't lift to a cool result and as the pigments fade it will turn warm again. Haircolour does not lift as much as lightener. So to have cool/neutral results you need to use what lifts you high enough and then tone.
I would foil her with bleach and 20 vol. starting off in different heights leaving her natural, then go back and lighten all lengths left in between.
After rinsing first tone roots/midlenghts, lastly ends.
As cassies said tint won't lift tint so bleach is the only option to get a cool result. It's not that bleach damages the hair but the incorrect usage/overprocessing. Olaplex helps though. There is no use in using something different if it doesn't give you the desired result! If you don't want any damage don't colour at all.

i'm attending an Olapex course very soon!
So i have realised i have no choice but to lighten now with bleach.
ok...i've accepted this...i will ensure the client understands when she arrives why its necessary.
i'm doing it for free...as it was my error so my job to correct.
This may sound like a silly question...but what would you tone with....?

I am thinking that if the ends are a level 8/9...i was considering using a level 9 and tone with pearl Ash
so 9/81
i've read that you tone with one shade lighter so you have time to watch the result develope...? And as im just depositing tone and not base...just a 3% developer?

 

[cassies97]

i really need to learn more about the tones. do you have a resource you can point me towards...?

The only resource you'll ever need it this