What could be the explanation to this condition?

[Planky1]

The pictures you have attached show onycolysis and if they are growing 3 weeks worth in one week that would explain why you're seeing a change so rapidly, because with regular regrowth it takes far longer to see improvement.
Unfortunately if it keeps happening then the cause is still there.

As for the cause, I know this isn't very helpful but you are not a doctor, and neither are we. We are nail professionals and we work with aesthetics!

If you confirm to her that it's one thing and it turns out to be another then you could be in big trouble.
If you have worries about the health of these nails, ask the girl to see her doctor.

Thanks for your comments. I'm not trying to diagnose and I know I'm not a doctor. I'm asking from a perspective that I'd like to know what it "could" be as I have only seen these things in text books. Also due to the fact they change on a weekly basis it was baffling me as to what is going on.

There are far more knowledgeable geeks here that would be faced with this type of thing and would be able to advise their client accordingly.

I too would like to know more so that when my client is saying, look at this, what is it and why is it happening? That I would be able to say, it could be this or it could be that, this could be why and I advise for it to be checked out and confirmed by a GP. Rather than, oh......no idea sorry. Not very professional in my book and whilst we don't and can't diagnose, our clients still look to us for advice.

Given the fact there is no nail plate separation and the fact one week they look like this then the next they don't, I wanted opinions on what the problems could be as I didn't think it could be onycholyosis when it changes week to week

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[waffle4]

But you could say "it could be this or it could be that" all day long and until she gets it looked at properly by a doctor it's just guess work. The poor girl is obviously in bad health so to leave it and just "guess" could be damaging in the long run as they may even be some indicator of something underlying health wise.

I would also not be shellacking every week either until you know what you're dealing with IMO x

 

[Planky1]

But you could say "it could be this or it could be that" all day long and until she gets it looked at properly by a doctor it's just guess work. The poor girl is obviously in bad health so to leave it and just "guess" could be damaging in the long run as they may even be some indicator of something underlying health wise.

I would also not be shellacking every week either until you know what you're dealing with IMO x

And I think a good nail technician should know what they are dealing with also which is why I'd like to know. I have already said to her she needs it looking at, I started the thread to also understand MYSELF what is going on, as I have not seen this before and it changes on a weekly basis which I find unusual. I want to learn and I want to know why things can possibly happen, not to diagnose but to be able to at least give my clients an idea on a few options of what "could" be happening so they actually DO go to the GP and don't just think I'm just being over dramatic and ignore me.

There are several threads where people have asked what could possibly be going on and the response every time is tell your client to go to the doctor. Well I like to know as much as I can, I aim to be as informed as some of the very experienced that are on this site and so I'm asking to learn

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[ChelseaNails]

I know where you're coming from, and agree that to sit there and say I don't have clue is unprofessional. No ones saying you shouldn't know what you're faced with, what I was saying is that you can't be sure and probably shouldn't speculate to your client what's causing her condition.

 

[squeakydee]

Ok, my ten pence worth...going from l&p to shellac is a huge change regardless of what state of health she is in. Her pics look like she has overused/bent her nails back pure and simple. Now she has nail plate separation from the trauma. She is possibly just readjusting to having a product on her nails that offers little or no strength compared to the strong l&p she had previously.
I would never recommend changing shellac on a weekly basis. There is too much solvent coming into contact with the nail and that will severely dehydrate the plate and surrounding tissue. Ultimately you may be causing her more problems in the longterm. You are seeing changes weekly with peeling etc from the constant exposure to chemicals in the removal process I would imagine.
I would recommend she tries gel as an alternative and get her onto a 3 week cycle. I've had many clients do better with gel than gel polish style treatments as it allows the nail to rest for a decent period inbetween Infills.
Have a chat with her, explain your concerns and see how she responds. If you want any more help, feel free to pm me xx


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[Planky1]

I know where you're coming from, and agree that to sit there and say I don't have clue is unprofessional. No ones saying you shouldn't know what you're faced with, what I was saying is that you can't be sure and probably shouldn't speculate to your client what's causing her condition.

That's right, none of us can actually know exactly what is happening as we are not doctors or medically trained and at no point did I say I wanted to diagnose because I know we can't and shouldn't.

So it's not a question of speculating and me saying well I think this is what is going on so don't worry about it, but when a client sits in front of me asking what on earth is going on, I would like to have enough knowledge to be able to say something like, well obviously I can't tell you for sure but I think it could be one of 3 things (for example) this is why these things could happen (like cleaning out nails damaging the hyponychium) and so you need to see a GP to diagnose properly.

I don't want to sit there saying I have no idea whatsoever because I personally feel that clients would expect us to have an idea on what "could" be the issues and that is more professional and more reassuring that we have at least a little bit of knowledge on these things, rather than shrug our shoulders and dismiss it totally. That doesn't look or come across very well IMO.

So if the thread can now get back on track, I'd appreciate some advice or possible answers to my original questions so that I can be more informed on what 'could' be happening and why. And why it could change on a weekly basis? this question is the one I'd really like to know more about because it's very odd. I've never seen someone's nails change on a weekly basis, have any of you?

There is no separation of the nailplate so could it be 'possible' she is causing the damage from the cleaning out of her nails and going too deep or could her health problems cause this type of thing to happen?

Thank you

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[Planky1]

Ok, my ten pence worth...going from l&p to shellac is a huge change regardless of what state of health she is in. Her pics look like she has overused/bent her nails back pure and simple. Now she has nail plate separation from the trauma. She is possibly just readjusting to having a product on her nails that offers little or no strength compared to the strong l&p she had previously.
I would never recommend changing shellac on a weekly basis. There is too much solvent coming into contact with the nail and that will severely dehydrate the plate and surrounding tissue. Ultimately you may be causing her more problems in the longterm. You are seeing changes weekly with peeling etc from the constant exposure to chemicals in the removal process I would imagine.
I would recommend she tries gel as an alternative and get her onto a 3 week cycle. I've had many clients do better with gel than gel polish style treatments as it allows the nail to rest for a decent period inbetween Infills.
Have a chat with her, explain your concerns and see how she responds. If you want any more help, feel free to pm me xx


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As I have said further back in the thread, unfortunately I don't offer any other option such as Gel or Gel polish but I will be recommending that she tries to go 2 weeks between appointments from now on and hopefully the new remover will also help with the dehydration during removal.

And also, just to reiterate again, there is no nail plate separation :wink2:

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[PixieBeauty]

Well in this case it seems to me the options are either she goes elsewhere to get gel or l&p, or you try get her to go two weeks.

What's to stop you, in this particular situation, from shellacking her then one week later if she can't stand the regrowth, gently buff over the top coat, prep the exposed area of nail & scrub fresh them perform an 'infill' to get her through the second week? Would there be any problems with that?

So, having come back to the thread a few times I get the impression Claire that this is down to client interference. Regardless of everything else discussed on the topic I think it might be worth suggesting she gets the Doc's once over, and then if he/she fails to give her a medical reason you could try saying that eliminates any other reason, & see if it helps her stop 'over-zealously' cleaning under her nails?

Xx

 

[Planky1]

Well in this case it seems to me the options are either she goes elsewhere to get gel or l&p, or you try get her to go two weeks.

What's to stop you, in this particular situation, from shellacking her then one week later if she can't stand the regrowth, gently buff over the top coat, prep the exposed area of nail & scrub fresh them perform an 'infill' to get her through the second week? Would there be any problems with that?

So, having come back to the thread a few times I get the impression Claire that this is down to client interference. Regardless of everything else discussed on the topic I think it might be worth suggesting she gets the Doc's once over, and then if he/she fails to give her a medical reason you could try saying that eliminates any other reason, & see if it helps her stop 'over-zealously' cleaning under her nails?

Xx

Thank you Pixie She admits every week that she has cleaned out under her nails again knowing she shouldn't be. So if I can say that what is happening may "possibly" be due to that, then hopefully she'll stop doing it! That's why I'm trying to find out if this "could" be a possible cause as I don't want to say that and it be totally and completely not possible. I have already advised her doctor take a look.

And we can't infill Shellac, I have advised clients before that if they wish, they can polish over the Shellac between appointments if they don't like the regrowth or just fancy a change. So I will advise her this week that we need to move to 2 weekly appointments and that she can do this to get her through

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[waffle4]

. I've never seen someone's nails change on a weekly basis, have any of you?
SalonGeek

Yes, very poorly people. Health can change on a weekly (even daily) basis and can show in people's hair, skin and nails. I also think by shellacking her weekly (as opposed to product recommendations of 2 weeks) you may have unwittingly compounded the problem as she may have fragile nails that obviously cannot take that much chemical exposure.

I moved my poorly lady onto hard gel with infills every 3 weeks and her nails improved greatly from having such a long rest between treatments.

 

[squeakydee]

No and like I say above, it changes week to week so pretty sure it's not the beginnings of onycholysis. She's also had no trauma to the nails of any kind

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But you can see on the second picture a distinct line across from the middle of the free edge to the side wall where the nail has bent and is damaged. Don't take everything a client tells you at face value! On the first picture, her nail bed looks incredibly red and sore. I think your client needs to be a bit more honest with you.


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[PixieBeauty]

Thank you Pixie She admits every week that she has cleaned out under her nails again knowing she shouldn't be. So if I can say that what is happening may "possibly" be due to that, then hopefully she'll stop doing it! That's why I'm trying to find out if this "could" be a possible cause as I don't want to say that and it be totally and completely not possible. I have already advised her doctor take a look.

And we can't infill Shellac, I have advised clients before that if they wish, they can polish over the Shellac between appointments if they don't like the regrowth or just fancy a change. So I will advise her this week that we need to move to 2 weekly appointments and that she can do this to get her through

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I agree about not infilling, not something I've ever done before but I have put another colour over after a week & it's been ok. I'm wondering if the same principle would work here? As long as she soaks off completely, every two weeks so the product isn't expected to last unduly long?

Just a thought, best of luck Xx

 

[Planky1]

But you can see on the second picture a distinct line across from the middle of the free edge to the side wall where the nail has bent and is damaged. Don't take everything a client tells you at face value! On the first picture, her nail bed looks incredibly red and sore. I think your client needs to be a bit more honest with you.


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She usually is honest with me. She's the first to admit to me if she's done something she shouldn't and she swears blind there has been no trauma to the nails.

Also, this only started happening after she had been in hospital and as said numerous times now, there is no nailplate separation and it will look like this one week, then normal the next. So it can't be onycholyosis (I would think)

She does admit to cleaning out under her nails very frequently and going very low down when doing this

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[geeg]

My observations are these.

Her nails do not look fragile to me and although the skin looks dry and she has a build up of cuticle, they also look in reasonably good health .

The "V" pattern tells me a story ... A "v" pattern forms when there has been some sort of torque pressure (caused by twisting) the nail plate. We see it in lifted enhancements frequently and it is always when a client is using her fingers excessively for some job or other and most likely is not even aware of it.

She may be causing the nail trauma with the digging and she maybe causing it by using her fingers in a task she is unaware of. She could be an ex biter so that these things show up more on her nails because her nail plates have less of a grip in the zone two area; not complete onycholysis but sort of half lifted or sprained, if you know what I mean. The same thing can happen and nails can look similar when they have been burned by excess filing either manually or with a drill or burned repeatedly when gels have heat spiked on her. These are all things you can tell your client followed by related questions you can ask the client.

I've had clients with just the sort of damage in the photos, at one corner of the thumbnail, when they constantly flick a lighter. So tell her what it looks like to you and ask her what she has done, or thinks she might be doing to cause it.

Her general health is between her and her doctor, but if it were a general thing then the signs would be on all of her nails and I do not believe they would be changing on a weekly basis.

 

[Planky1]

My observations are these.

Her nails do not look fragile to me and although the skin looks dry and she has a build up of cuticle, they also look in reasonably good health .

The "V" pattern tells me a story ... A "v" pattern forms when there has been some sort of torque pressure (caused by twisting) the nail plate. We see it in lifted enhancements frequently and it is always when a client is using her fingers excessively for some job or other and most likely is not even aware of it.

She may be causing the nail trauma with the digging and she maybe causing it by using her fingers in a task she is unaware of. She could be an ex biter so that these things show up more on her nails because her nail plates have less of a grip in the zone two area; not complete onycholysis but sort of half lifted or sprained, if you know what I mean. The same thing can happen and nails can look similar when they have been burned by excess filing either manually or with a drill or burned repeatedly when gels have heat spiked on her. These are all things you can tell your client followed by related questions you can ask the client.

I've had clients with just the sort of damage in the photos, at one corner of the thumbnail, when they constantly flick a lighter. So tell her what it looks like to you and ask her what she has done, or thinks she might be doing to cause it.

Her general health is between her and her doctor, but if it were a general thing then the signs would be on all of her nails and I do not believe they would be changing on a weekly basis.

Thank you so much Geeg, this is a great explanation and really answers my questions.

She has told me before that when she used to wear L&P enhancements there was always excessive filing, using a drill, one of the reasons she wanted to stop having them and move to Shellac to try and let her nails recover and to have the opportunity, with my help, to grow her own nails. What was baffling me was how they can change in appearance so frequently and your explanation makes sense.

I will speak with her again about not going so deep when cleaning out her nails and that ideally not to do it at all. If there could end up being full on onycholysis from this, then hopefully this time she will listen and stop doing it. And I will use your flicking of a lighter example to see if we can get to the bottom of what she may be doing, that's a great example.

As I said in my original post, the use of silk has really improved the condition of her nails in just a couple of weeks, so I will continue with this under the shellac and with her cooperation in being more careful with her nails, bi weekly instead of weekly appointments, silk or fibreglass and the new shellac remover, hopefully we will begin to get back on track and get her nails in a better condition again.

Thank you

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