CND base coat under LED lamp

[Sparkle Treats]

Hi all
I had a brain snap yesterday, and applied CND base coat and cured under the Gelish 5 45 lamp, instead of the Gelish base coat.
Went ahead to do the rest of the service with Gelish colour and top coat.
It was a friend that i do on a regular basis at no charge, so i told her that i used the wrong base, and I'd redo it if it didn't last.
She wasn't worried, our nail time is also our coffee catch up so it's an excuse to get together again if it's a redo!
My question is, has anyone actually tried using CND with LED?
I don't actually have any colours left of CND, sold them because i couldn't cope with 'lamp-gate'.

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[The Geek]

I have had to deal with a serious number of people who have had problems intermixing lamps and light cured products.

While you will certainly know if your lamp seriously undercured your product, you will have a very hard time knowing if it ever cured it correctly. Symptoms of overexposure from undercuring can take a long to surface. Nor will you ever know if the clients that were disappointed with the results of the service never returned to you because you half baked their application.

While not directed at you and more of a rant; I do really wish more professionals valued the science behind the technology more. Seems many just think "well, its a light, so it MUST work"... or "They just want to sell me a lamp because that is clearly a better long term strategy than simply selling product". It boggles my mind at times. People are quick to complain about other techs cutting corners to save a penny (while damaging the industry) yet fall into the same ethos when it comes to something so fundamentally important.

HTH's. Sorry in advance for the rant

 

[jigily]

I have had to deal with a serious number of people who have had problems intermixing lamps and light cured products.

While you will certainly know if your lamp seriously undercured your product, you will have a very hard time knowing if it ever cured it correctly. Symptoms of overexposure from undercuring can take a long to surface. Nor will you ever know if the clients that were disappointed with the results of the service never returned to you because you half baked their application.

While not directed at you and more of a rant; I do really wish more professionals valued the science behind the technology more. Seems many just think "well, its a light, so it MUST work"... or "They just want to sell me a lamp because that is clearly a better long term strategy than simply selling product". It boggles my mind at times. People are quick to complain about other techs cutting corners to save a penny (while damaging the industry) yet fall into the same ethos when it comes to something so fundamentally important.

HTH's. Sorry in advance for the rant

I think most of us do understand where ur coming from and I fully understand the importance but should we be backed into a corner to only provide a service from one supplier because we all can't afford to buy the lamp that goes with every service we want to provide.
We all have a variety of clients that like & suit different systems. Mobile or not we haven't got the room or capabilities to provide a lamp for each.
What do u suggest we do?

 

[TheNailBarista]

Yup! Once did an ENTIRE manicure with CND Shellac using a Gelish LED lamp a few years ago and since it was a very light translucent colour I didn't notice anything unusual. It wasn't till I applied the top coat and I had never seen so much color transfer to the paint brush did I realize I was using the wrong light. LEARNT FROM MY MISTAKE! Lol. Live and learn right! CND Shellac doesn't cure with a LED light.

I sooooo wish they made CND Shellac curable with any LED light tho..... It's for that reason alone I decided not to use CND Shellac in my personal practice because of coasts of light bulbs and such. LED curable gel polishes are the bomb.


I'm just editing what I said earlier.... I know CND has recently come out with a LED light..... So when I said "CND does not cure with a LED light, I mean not just any LED light, the way you can with "MOST" ( I know not all, don't attack me lol) gel polishes.

 

[The Geek]

I think most of us do understand where ur coming from and I fully understand the importance but should be backed into a corner to only provide a service from one supplier because we all can't afford to buy the lamp that goes with every service we want to provide.
We all have a variety of clients that like & suit different systems. Mobile or not we haven't got the room or capabilities to provide a lamp for each.
What do u suggest we do?

There isn't an easy answer apart from the obvious one (one brand per lamp). Saying that, there are many brands out there that all all manufactured by the same company - those will be all formulated to work under the same lamp. Then again, they are the same formula, so other than colour selection... I don't know what it would bring to the table.

I am a nail tech. I empathise because if I was still sat across from my customers now I would have similar frustrations and challenges. But bottom line; don't fall for the "1 lamp to rule them all strategy". It is a false economy.

 

[jordanmichael.l]

Yup! Once did an ENTIRE manicure with CND Shellac using a Gelish LED lamp a few years ago and since it was a very light translucent colour I didn't notice anything unusual. It wasn't till I applied the top coat and I had never seen so much color transfer to the paint brush did I realize I was using the wrong light. LEARNT FROM MY MISTAKE! Lol. Live and learn right! CND Shellac doesn't cure with a LED light.

I sooooo wish they made CND Shellac curable with any LED light tho..... It's for that reason alone I decided not to use CND Shellac in my personal practice because of coasts of light bulbs and such. LED curable gel polishes are the bomb

CNDs LED lamp is out next month though! And to be honest I prefer that it cures in just that LED lamp than just any lamp.. As some brands that made the switch have done it by reformulating their products to be LED curable meaning not only do you then buy an LED lamp for starts but you have to replace your whole stock which has the new formula to benefit.... Which is expensive! Where as CND have tweaked their new lamp to work with all existing products, breaking the mould once again!

 

[NancySyd]

I understand that it is costly and cumbersome to have the specific lamp for every brand (although many brands can be used with the lamp of another), but we do have to abide by the manufacturer's instructions to maintain both our insurance and, in some cases, manufacturer's certification.

That said, I believe CND continues to shoot itself in the foot on the lamp issue. Making CND Shellac only curable with the CND lamp and making a CND LED lamp that does not meet the criteria to cure other brands (not saying this is the case, we'll find this out as more info comes out about the lamp), means that fewer people will choose to use Shellac - especially when the lamp has been unreliable. I am glad for all my colleagues who use Shellac; this lamp is an important step forward. But it is not enough to get others to switch to Shellac or add it to their services. A 60 minutes cure and a lamp that can only be used for Shellac? No, thank you.

I think CND Shellac is a great product, but when I use a product line, I use it correctly. So, no Shellac for me. Shellac brings them back? Not this time.

 

[The Geek]

So they should re formulate Shellac so that it can work with other brands lights? That doesn't seem like a good idea, especially when they have no say over said lamp. What if that manufacturer tweaks things and it affects performance? Why won't other brands just re formulate to match the uv output Shellac needs? Shellac is as sensitive to the uv output it requires as any other brand so it seems like that gripe should go both ways.

 

[NancySyd]

As some brands that made the switch have done it by reformulating their products to be LED curable meaning not only do you then buy an LED lamp for starts but you have to replace your whole stock which has the new formula to benefit.... Which is expensive! Where as CND have tweaked their new lamp to work with all existing products, breaking the mould once again!

Actually most brands of gel polish were LED curable from the start - Gelish, OPI, Essie, Geleration, Orly, ACG, etc. Only a small number had to switch - LeChat, Light Elegant, NSI, Gelac.

 

[Sparkle Treats]

I didn't say i had deliberately used the wrong LAMP, I said that I had a brain snap and used the wrong BASE COAT with a Gelish service.
I just wanted to know if anyone had actually used CND with an LED lamp, because i was wondering if it would last a day or a week.
If you had read the post, you would have seen that it was the BASE COAT only.
I thought my post was clear that it was a one off error of using the wrong base coat with a gelish colour top coat and lamp. Was wondering if anyone else had made the same mistake, and what the outcome was.
Crikey!
Lucky it wasn't a serious mistake like DELIBERATELY doing a whole CND service with a GENERIC lamp, I'm sure If that was the case I'd be hunted down and burnt at the stake!
Thanks to those for the helpful info that got what i meant.


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[squidgernetball]

I think your thread got hijacked x

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[The Geek]

I didn't think anyone thought you did it on purpose. I was merely building off the topic to address "lamp-gate" and thought I made that clear so apologies if you took it as something else.

FWIW, you will be far less likely having an issue with a clear, very thin topcoat than a colour in this instance.

Good luck

 

[Sparkle Treats]

I think your thread got hijacked x

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Lol
Always interesting reading tho....

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[Sparkle Treats]

I didn't think anyone thought you did it on purpose. I was merely building off the topic to address "lamp-gate" and thought I made that clear so apologies if you took it as something else.

FWIW, you will be far less likely having an issue with a clear, very thin topcoat than a colour in this instance.

Good luck

Thankyou!
And sorry for losing it! !
I'd had one of THOSE days. ...
And it's school holidays.....
Thanks to all for taking the time to contribute xx

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[NancySyd]

So they should re formulate Shellac so that it can work with other brands lights? That doesn't seem like a good idea, especially when they have no say over said lamp. What if that manufacturer tweaks things and it affects performance? Why won't other brands just re formulate to match the uv output Shellac needs? Shellac is as sensitive to the uv output it requires as any other brand so it seems like that gripe should go both ways.

Sorry to further hijack the thread, but I think Sparkle Treat's error illustrates the problem very well. Should Shellac reformulate so it can work with other lamps? Yes! - that's what R&D is for and CND boasts of its R&D. And obviously other brands can't reformulate to a lamp that hasn't come out yet. While you can argue that the gripe could go both ways, the reality is that it is CND Shellac that is out on a limb all alone, and it is losing market share. In an attempt to distinguish itself, it has isolated itself. CND is still acting like it is 2010 and CND Shellac is the only product out there. Other products do work well with other brands' lamps and colors - Gelish has even made it an advertising point. And besides, when you are last in the market with your product (the lamp), you do have to adapt to what already exists - other brands have done this. At least with the CND UV lamp, it did work with other brands and that one lamp was all you needed. The question now is will they continue that with this LED lamp? Few techs (a least here) use only one gel polish brand anymore and the fact that CND Shellac requires a separate lamp that won't work with other brands (we don't really know that yet) is a huge problem. CND claims to be sensitive to nail professionals, but its conduct and strictures are anything but.

 

[Sparkle Treats]

Hijack away NancySyd, i always find your comments interesting.
And, the CND lamp is the one reason i sold my shellac colours (bar a base and top coat) and migrated to IBD and Gelish.
When I bought my Gelish 5 45, at less than half the price of the CND lamp, i was told that it cures all LED curable gels, and was also told that IBD can be cured by the Gelish LED lamp. All angles covered. ....
No more feeling like clients hands will fall off due to incorrect lamp usage.
😃

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[The Geek]

We will ahve to agree to disagree on much of the sentiment here Nancy.

CND has not gone out on a limb to try and distinguish itself. It has formulated a really great product that distinguishes itself in its approach to the formulation while providing the tools to get the best results from that formulation.

R&D's role is to make the best product possible. As Doug has stated many times in the past, when formulating for light cured products, they desperately tried to avoid making a lamp, but it just wasn't an option to make the best product they could that would correctly cure under a variety of UV lights.

Other products COULD reformulate though no one wants to change their own winning formulas. It seems that you think the LED light emits something other than what the current lamp (that has been out for 5 years) does. It does not. The new LED lamp is designed to output the correct UV light that the current lamp does, but at a higher intensity. The LED light also approaches this in a way that prevents shock curing of the coatings. In shortt: The LED was tuned to the products formula, not the other way around.

I for one would love them to be able to reformulate their products to work with a variety of lamps, but not if it compromised quality. They have said this just isn't possible. If you think that is because they are wanting to profit from selling lamps, I can assure you it isn't. The lamps are one time sales and everyone knows brands that say "light? who cares, use whatever is out there" sells more consumables than those that try and focus on selling the performance.

Brands like Gelish can build out to multiple lamps because there are multiple brands they are responsible for (and multiple lamps). If CND spun out multiple gel colour brands, you can be assured all of those would work with the CND lamps - thus giving you a similar affect.

And while I respect your feeling on the matter, I just don't know where you are getting your position re: market share. The data I have just doesn't support that.

Hope that helps with another perspective.

 

[The Geek]

And, the CND lamp is the one reason i sold my shellac colours (bar a base and top coat) and migrated to IBD and Gelish.
When I bought my Gelish 5 45, at less than half the price of the CND lamp, i was told that it cures all LED curable gels, and was also told that IBD can be cured by the Gelish LED lamp.

Its a shame that the cost of the lamp in your market turned you away from the brand, but that isn't the case in all markets. Hopefully the LED light can be better positioned there to prevent that happening again.

 

[NancySyd]

We will ahve to agree to disagree on much of the sentiment here Nancy.

CND has not gone out on a limb to try and distinguish itself. It has formulated a really great product that distinguishes itself in its approach to the formulation while providing the tools to get the best results from that formulation.

R&D's role is to make the best product possible. As Doug has stated many times in the past, when formulating for light cured products, they desperately tried to avoid making a lamp, but it just wasn't an option to make the best product they could that would correctly cure under a variety of UV lights.

Other products COULD reformulate though no one wants to change their own winning formulas. It seems that you think the LED light emits something other than what the current lamp (that has been out for 5 years) does. It does not. The new LED lamp is designed to output the correct UV light that the current lamp does, but at a higher intensity. The LED light also approaches this in a way that prevents shock curing of the coatings. In shortt: The LED was tuned to the products formula, not the other way around.

I for one would love them to be able to reformulate their products to work with a variety of lamps, but not if it compromised quality. They have said this just isn't possible. If you think that is because they are wanting to profit from selling lamps, I can assure you it isn't. The lamps are one time sales and everyone knows brands that say "light? who cares, use whatever is out there" sells more consumables than those that try and focus on selling the performance.

Brands like Gelish can build out to multiple lamps because there are multiple brands they are responsible for (and multiple lamps). If CND spun out multiple gel colour brands, you can be assured all of those would work with the CND lamps - thus giving you a similar affect.

And while I respect your feeling on the matter, I just don't know where you are getting your position re: market share. The data I have just doesn't support that.

Hope that helps with another perspective.

I understand the science and strategy behind the product and the development, but those are choices that CND has made and I am arguing that they have made choices that isolate CND Shellac.

I am not disputing that CND Shellac is a wonderful and innovative product. I am still hopeful that as more is known about this lamp it will be what I hoped for. But the fact remains that CND Shellac does not work well within the existing gel polish market. No matter how wonderful a product it is, if it is too costly and cumbersome to use, its success will be mitigated. We see that constantly on this board where people are giving up on Shellac because it isn't meeting their needs - that's the dilemma Sparkle Treats faced and what is at the heart of this thread.

The data on market share is readily available in the industry reports. Three years ago CND Shellac had over 60% of the gel polish market. Last I looked, it had less than 35%. It is a fast growing market, so CND is not losing revenue, but it is getting a smaller part of a growing "pie." In addition to the potential revenue loss, it also means that CND's influence and ability to have leverage over the market is shrinking. I find that sad because I think CND is an interesting and innovative company that brings something special to the market

 

[The Geek]

The Kline report goes up through 2014 and states says that CND grew (not shrunk) and Gelish grew at about the same % (gel polish category). Those are the only 2 in the report with double digit marketshare. So I would suspect the marketshare numbers that you are referencing is a result of a substantially larger amount of brands in the market + more laggard adopters.

Put in an illustrative way, if you are one of 2 people selling to 5 people out of 10 - you each have 50% marketshare. Fast forward a few years and there are 50 people selling to 100, 35% is still 7 times the amount of people you were selling to before.

Hope that makes sense.