Is it true l&p never stops releasing chemicals

[becca boo]

Hiya,
I am confused on another forum I was reading a comment that stated when using l&p the chemicals NEVER stop realising. Even when you file you breath in the particles and the particles release chemicals.

Personally that is the most outragous thing I have ever heard.:smack: From what I know l&p fully cures in 24-48 hours. So how can it continue to release chemicals. Wouldnt we not be able to use it if it was this harmful?

Thanks Geeks, I am lost on this one

 

[grafxgal]

If it was harmful in any way the FDA would ban it.

 

[liza smith]

i would lay big money that this little gem came from someone that either sells gel or only uses gel products.
some of us are qualified in more than 1 system so that we can offer a full service.
also, some of us choose to get our FACTS from the people that actually research and develop the products that we use, not from hans, christia n anderson

 

[JDs]

think about it! What are the ingredients in L&P? You apply this to a very absorbable part of the body and it will soak into the bloodstream. You apply this odor chemical medium and you inhale it. The chemicals are still there, why shouldn't the odors be.

Now though, like grafxgal said, it hasn't been banned by the FDA yet so it must be ok. eh?
When we file , it is the particals that we are most concerned about inhaling not really the fumes , Although in my presence, those fumes are enough to give me a blazing headache. (that is why I do gel nails)

This is very valuable information that shouldn't be just poopoo'd ladies. It is something to think about seriously because god only knows that down the road a few years from now, someone is going to find that it causes cancer just like drinking coffee or milk does,

 

[grafxgal]

Sorry I'm just not getting the jist of your post JD.
I've just finished smelling my enhancements.......can't smell a thing.
Once the product has finished curing that is it......it has finished it's chemical reaction.
To quote Doug Schoon, "everything you can see or touch is a chemical, except for light and electricity."
It's like saying everytime I scratch myself and release the loose skin I am realeasing chemicals into the air........in truth I am, but it's not dangerous, is it?
The fact that monomer has a somewhat unpleasant smell/odour is irrelevant.... some of the most dangerous substances have very sweet, pleasant fragrances.
I would add more but I'm sure that one of our more scientific geeks will be able to elaborate more.

 

[JDs]

Now though, like grafxgal said, it hasn't been banned by the FDA yet so it must be ok. eh?

Didn't you read this part?

Ok so lets see if I can't be more clear on my thoughts here.

Anything that has a odor in the beginning, will still have the chemicals in it that cause that odor in the first place. Just because we can't smell them doesn't mean they aren't there.
But as the FDA has approved these products , so even the smell and odors can't be bad for you correct?

Now are you understanding what I am saying? Sorry I wasn't clearer the first time. Sometimes I know what I am saying and think others will know also..

 

[Sassy Hassy]

Whilst I know enough to work safely in the salon, I am not going to reply or offer advice in this thread as I am unqualified in this area and I will leave it to those who are. I think we could do with a Doug Schoon entry here - now there's a man who knows his chemistry!

 

[ValencianNails]

think about it! What are the ingredients in L&P? You apply this to a very absorbable part of the body and it will soak into the bloodstream.

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/49665-client-afraid-being-poisoned.html

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/56777-future-organic-nails-haha.html#post602838

There is no way that product will soak into the nail and get in to the bloodstream.

hth's

 

[Sassy Hassy]

Okay I've found this in the tech notes about pregnancy by Doug Schoon

"The answer is yes; of course they can safely wear artificial nails! There is absolutely no reason to believe that wearing any type of nail enhancement is harmful during pregnancy. The product polymerizes (hardens) within three minutes, practically eliminating the chance that any of the product will penetrate beyond the topmost layers of the nail plate. Also, the level of exposure to salon chemicals while receiving nail services is miniscule and will create no risks to the pregnant client. "

 

[1999judy]

When filing gel the particles are different to L&P, there may well be less odour but the dust can be a problem if you are not working correctly. But if you work as you should with L&P the odours are not harmful. I'm sure Doug Schoon is more qualified to explain about this.
The plastics we use in general day to day life use monomers but it doesn't make them dangerous. I doubt my bin bags are still curing in the cupboard under the sink??
This is one of those "nails breathe" type rumours.

 

[The Geek]

Hope I can help clarify things here.

First off, there is no relationship between an odour and the potential danger level of anything. Carbon Monoxide is odourless, but will kill you. Many products are odourless, but still evaporate (and thus form vapours which is what you breathe in). Ill babble on about that in a moment!

The next thing that is important to understand is the difference between exposure and overexposure. Every chemical (as mentioned previously; a chemical is anything you can see or touch except for light and electricity) has a safe exposure and unsafe exposure level and no chemical is dangerous unless you become overexposed to it.
In this context, when you overexpose an area of the body to a chemical (ingredient) then the body's immune system starts to come into play (nails do not count as they are not living matter!). Depending on the amount of the offending chemical (in this case 'ingredient') and strength of it as a sensitise, the body will slowly and subtly in the beginning, however after each repeated overexposure, it will respond faster and more 'severe'.
In this case, the overexposed area will being to show signs of irritation (redness, temporary burning, etc...). Repeated and continual exposure (even months later) will cause the symptoms of irritation to increase in intensity, eventually manifesting itself as an allergic reaction. Once again, this is because the body's immune system believes that it is 'under attack' by a particular ingredient and responds accordingly. This is really no different than when someone eventually develops an allergic reaction to a metal like nickel or gold (i.e. earrings). Other good examples are latex, poison ivy, perfumes, detergents, etc... The body 'thinks' these are potential pathogens and a threat to the body, so the body 'attacks' the ingredient to protect itself. This is seen as a 'reaction'. It is important to note that this is localised. In other words, swabbing product on their lateral folds wont cause a reaction to appear on their butt. Furthermore, you will only overexpose them IF you get it on their skin IN THE FIRST PLACE AND THEN CONTINUE TO GET IT ON THEIR SKIN TIME AND TIME AGAIN!

To put things into perspective, traditional gels are FAR more likely to cause the body to go into full alert with skin exposure than monomer and polymer systems. There are some exceptions, however no gel is less likely to cause irritation than a L&P system (except for light cured L&P systems and in many cases, odourless L&P systems!). The funny thing to note here is that the odourless systems (gels and odourless/light cured L&P) are FAR more likely to cause irritation as they contain stronger sensitisers! Though not absolute, a general rule of thumb is; less odour means more potential for irritation!

So, skin exposure aside, what about breathing in this stuff? Gels have a substantially lower evaporation rate as they are pre-formed monomers. That doesn't mean they aren't evaporating, it is just substantially lower (most gels still contain monomers as flow modifiers).
When anything (in this case monomers) evaporate, they form a vapour which is what you are smelling. But is your nose a very good gauge on the relative safety of a chemical? Nope. It's a pants gauge.

Your olfactory sense (sense of smell) is over 10,000 times stronger than sight. Your sense of smell can pick up and identify something in the air that is less than 1 part per million (ppm's are how air quality are measured). In this instance, your nose can strongly identify monomer molecules in the air when there is less than 1 for every million parts of air! Can you imagine for a second being able to 'see' a needle in a haystack containing over a million straws of hay?!?

The average nail salon is around 100-200 times below the safety threshold level for exposure to EMA (the key monomer in L&P enhancements). To put that into perspective, your exposure to the safety threshold levels of carbon monoxide on your way to work is potentially higher.

Many, many air quality studies have been done in many parts of the world in nail salons because of peoples 'concern' about the 'dangerous' substances they may be inhaling in the salon. Every single time without fail, they determine that the salon air quality is FAR below any type of level to be concerned with. This doesn't mean that you should not practise proper extraction and ventilation! It just means put things into perspective! For some, a curry house stinks - but it doesn't mean it is going to kill you!

HTHs!

 

[Sals]

a curry house stinks - but it doesn't mean it is going to kill you!

You obviously haven't been in my local curry house!:green:

Thanks for that Sam. Very informative.

 

[liza smith]

yaay
who needs doug shcoon when we have GMG:lol:
im printing that one off straight away, it said beautifully what was in my head, but just couldnt quite get out in the correct order!!
ps. only kidding doug x

 

[Lellipop]

[To put that into perspective, your exposure to the safety threshold levels of carbon monoxide on your way to work is potentially higher.
-The geek

Yep and where I live the fumes from traffic is more worrying to me
Fab post Sam

 

[JDs]

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/49665-client-afraid-being-poisoned.html

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/56777-future-organic-nails-haha.html#post602838

There is no way that product will soak into the nail and get in to the bloodstream.

hth's

Sandi, I said nothing about it being dangerous or harmful. I was simply stating that just because you can't smell it doesn't mean it isn't there.
And sorry, I have a really hard time believing that something that is placed on your nailplate is not going to absorb into it. What is right beneneath your nailplate?? a Nail bed that has bloodvessels and living tissue.
If your nails can retain and absorb water, they can retain/absorb other things also.

 

[becca boo]

thank you Sam I am posting this on the other site that started the question. Is there a good book for refference tha thas to do with what we use chemically?

 

[1999judy]

And sorry, I have a really hard time believing that something that is placed on your nailplate is not going to absorb into it. What is right beneneath your nailplate?? a Nail bed that has bloodvessels and living tissue.
If your nails can retain and absorb water, they can retain/absorb other things also.

A client would show signs of any overexposure by having an allergic reaction.
I thought the only way a client could get overexposure via the nail plate was if the tech was working constantly too wet? in which case the nail plate would go very white in colour and again, get an allergic reaction.

 

[The Geek]

Hey Jayne, it is true that there is a risk that monomer could absorb through the nail plate to the bed underneath. But there are really two things that would cause that: Excessively wet mix ratio and/or excessively thin nail plate. The wetter you go, the more you increase the risk, the thinner the plate the more you increase the risk.

Saying that, the nail plate is not an easy thing to get substances into. The nail plate is made up of 3 'sections' making up to 105-150 layers. The outer layers are VERY much non-porous while the inner section (the largest section) is very porous. This is is the reason why many poorer products require you to 'etch' the surface of the natural nail plate, so that there is a more 'porous' surface to 'grab' to. Doing this damages the integrity of the plate and increases the risk of exposure, but none the less, it is STILL very challenging to get monomer to absorb through to the plate to the skin below.

IF you were constantly getting monomer absorbed to the bed below, irritation would start there. Symptoms would be burning, itchiness, redness, etc... Those indicators (regardless of thickness of the plate) are sure fire signs that you are exposing the bed (or any tissue for that matter).

Hope this helps!

 

[Snugglepuss]

JD, I wouldn't worry too much about the risk of chemicals being absorbed through the nail plate into living tissue - ie nail bed for two reasons :green:

Firstly, because the links and info are spot on from all the geeks :green:

Secondly, because of the type of chemical reaction going on, the L&P will "cure" from the nail upwards and also the top downwards - why? well because the type of polymer and monomer we use cures with heat as they are cross-linking molecules - so, the warmer the area, the quicker it cures.

As the cross-linking molecules are busy reacting to the heat of our hands, then it doesn't have time to seep through to the nail plate. You can test it out my getting a big dollop of L&P letting it rest for a bit and then slice it open - it will be firmer on the outer side and soggy still on the inside - hope I'm explaining it ok :lol:

Not all free radicals are dangerous and indeed some are actually required in the body - it just depends what type they are - as long as they cross link it shouldn't be a problem - unless of course the client is continually over exposed

BTW - if the polymer and monomer isn't a cross linking type, then when it is exposed to heat, it will go all slippy and soggy :lol:

HTHs :green:

Just added the quote below -

Once the molecular chains are formed, it is possible for them to be joined to each other
by covalent bonds through a process known as crosslinking. The properties of a crosslinked
polymer differ markedly from those of the non-crosslinked variety, as you experienced when you
made Slime® in the first lab period. The molecular chains in non-crosslinked polymers will
usually slide across each other, especially when heated, so that the polymer softens and flows
and can be molded to form a variety of shapes. Such polymers are called thermoplastic
polymers. Crosslinked polymers are more rigid, hard and sometimes brittle and are referred to as
thermosetting polymers.

 

[JDs]

Hey Jayne, it is true that there is a risk that monomer could absorb through the nail plate to the bed underneath. But there are really two things that would cause that: Excessively wet mix ratio and/or excessively thin nail plate. The wetter you go, the more you increase the risk, the thinner the plate the more you increase the risk.

Thanks sam for posting that info. Very interesting and hopefully very educational for other nail peeps.

As in anything Sam, Anything and everything has its risks. The air we breathe isn't even safe.
Thin nail plates: Isn't this the reason why many peeps do wear nail enhancements? And What about those peepy clients who are destroying their nail plates by constantly breaking them or worse yet..picking them off!

Saying that, the nail plate is not an easy thing to get substances into. The nail plate is made up of 3 'sections' making up to 105-150 layers. The outer layers are VERY much non-porous while the inner section (the largest section) is very porous. This is is the reason why many poorer products require you to 'etch' the surface of the natural nail plate, so that there is a more 'porous' surface to 'grab' to. Doing this damages the integrity of the plate and increases the risk of exposure, but none the less, it is STILL very challenging to get monomer to absorb through to the plate to the skin below.

Okay so common sense says that the nail is not able to absorb..what about wearing say a red nail polish and after wearing it all the time, you take it off and the nail plates are discolored yellow. Or a heavy cigarette smoker whose nails are yellowish..
These are staining of the nail plate. In order for the nail plate to stain..it has to absorb. Stains do not just lie on the top surface, they actually do penetrate the surface. How many layers I do not know , but in order to get the stain off, you have to file it off thus leaving the nail plate thinner which in turn leaves the nail plate exposed more for absorption of chemicals.

And ahh yes the good old primer that etched the nail. When I started doing nails many moons ago..this is the stuff we used. It stunk to high heavens and pretty much ruined the nail plate. This is why I stopped doing acrylics.
I still see that pretty much of the market in acrylic nails call for some type of primer being used. What is the difference between the primer being used now a days and the one back when?
Isnt the primer the main factor in keeping the acrylic on the nail plate?


So if the nail plate is Very non porous..how come when I get my hands immersed in water that my nails are soft afterwards until the water is evaporated from my nails? And I am not talking about just the freeedge of my nails, I have looked at them closely, the whole nailplate is soft.
Mind you, I have very strong nails also. (thanks to solar oil and Nail envy)