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Nail Separation

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MichelleAU

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Hi All

Hoping you can help me with this one.

About 3-4 months ago I acquired a new client who had a
small degree of separation on the free edge of one of
her natural nails. After quizzing her, she said it had
always been like that. We applied acrylics and I check
each fortnight to ensure the separation isn't getting
any worse.

She phoned me last night to say that 1/4 of her
natural nail has separated from the nail bed and that
this happens every time she wears acrylic.

This lady is my best customer (spends $70-100/mth) and
I really want to help her out. She wears EzFlow french
acrylic and has maintenance every 2 weeks.

Could this be an allergic reaction? If so, what are
the alternatives, I don't do gels :?

Looking forward to your responses...
 

geeg

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MichelleAU said:
About 3-4 months ago I acquired a new client who had a
small degree of separation on the free edge of one of
her natural nails. After quizzing her, she said it had
always been like that.
Could this be an allergic reaction? If so, what are
the alternatives, I don't do gels :?
If the clients nail always has had a bit of onycholysis, chances are that the nail plate is not tightly adhered to the nail bed at the free edge. Most products have a degree of 'shrinkage' (some up to 10-12%) as they polymerize, and this shrinkage 'pulls up' on the plate and de-rails it if a weakness is there. Gels shrink the most of any product when polymerizing so not a good idea to use a gel.

I don't wish to appear biased but Creative L&P has a shrinkage of less than 1%. Why not get a 'try-me' kit and use it on this client and note the difference. Be extra careful also to not weaken the plate further during prep or tip blending and use a fine grit file for blending. Harsh abrasives can also contribute to onycholysis on a weak nail plate.

You are definitely not seeing an allergic reaction.
 

Christie's Nails

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Maybe she should ask a doctor about her nails? You never know. I have heard of a bacterial infection causing this kinda thing. Never good for us to diagnose tho is it? We are certainly not licensed for that.


I don't wish to appear biased but Creative L&P has a shrinkage of less than 1%.
Geeg, where did that fact come from? I have never heard it before. I actually kinda thought CND shrunk alot. Thus the big problem with pocket lifting. Maybe if the ratio is just right then the shrikage is very minimal? Interesting. I have in fact had a client who said the same thing as Michelles. It was not all her nails though. After a number of fills a few of the nail beds kinda started to recede. She also said that this always happens when she wears acrylics. I was using Retention+. I hand filed and tried really hard not to put too much force on the nail to pop it out of its grooves. She did decide to stop wearing acrylics.
There are just a million things that can go wrong with nails arent there? People actually ask why I would want to go to classes or nail shows...they think "how hard can it be to paint nails?" LOL If they ONLY knew!
 

geeg

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All the information that is taught by Creative Ambassadors is information that has come out of our laboratory at Creative from the Chief Chemist. We never teach 'opinion' on this type of issue. It is information that is usually taught at our Master Classes. There is virtually no shrinkage with Retention + or Radical unless as you say, one is working with an incorrect mix ratio, and it is a very easy mix to get just right. You can see when it is right and you can feel when it is right.

Creative is one of only a few companies to manufacture its own products and to have huge lab facilities with a number of chemists working full time on new innovations. One of the many reasons it is so exciting to work with Creative.

As for pocket lifting - I know it seems to be a problem for you but honestly, I can say it is not an issue that I come across, in the UK or Spain, with any of our technicians ... really! Nor is it a problem I have ever had myself with any client.

As for Onycholysis, it simply means 'nailplate separation' and is a very general term. One is not 'diagnosing' the cause of it by identifying that it is there. Many people have a touch of onycholysis for a million different reasons. For some it is permanent on maybe one nail due to say an injury from way back. The fact that the client stated that she always has it on this one nail indicates that it is most likely due to some past trauma at some stage and is permanent.



A infection of any kind beneath the naillplate (if it was the cause and were present) would be accompanied by redness or puffyness not to mention pain, and of course you would not do a treatment on that nail and one would, as you say, seek a doctors advise.

.
 

Christie's Nails

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You really have not heard of people having pocket lifting? Maybe we get a diff. batch over here..lol That is one of the things I hear consistently. Experienced techs too. Not just beginners. Mostly with Ret+. I know that alot of times techs are afraid to even admit that they are having a prob because it is always put back on the tech... It makes you look like a loser tech...lol
By the way..not having a problem with pocket lifting anymore...heeheehee

Yeah...that is what I was saying too about the free edge seperation thing. Ditto.

Hey Gigi, it is ok if we have diff. opinions tho isn't it? ;) That is what is so cool about this message board. :)
 

geeg

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Christie's Nails said:
Hey Gigi, it is ok if we have diff. opinions tho isn't it? ;) That is what is so cool about this message board. :)
As you say, that is what is so cool about this message board. But opinions are just that and your experience (thank goodness) is not everyones. Sometimes experienced technicians are the ones who have the most problems because they use every product the same way and that is not possible with R+ - the product does work differently - it is very different. This is another reason we have conversion classes so we can teach users how to use it most effectively.

We have a 'hot line' in the UK as well as the USA and if a significant amount of users were having a problem we definitely would have heard about it by now, we have been selling R+ for years and it has a proven reputation for excellence.

I see my customers here in Spain every 2 weeks and pocket lifting has never been mentioned to me ever. I can only tell you my experience. So in the spirit of professionalism and frienship lets find out what the cause of your problem is by asking Doug Schoon for his advise and let's not assume that there is something wrong with the product? I will let you know what he says but I think between us the GEEK and I have covered most of the bases to help you and maybe the next time you go to a show you can check your mix ratio at the Creative Booth as I feel confident this is the source of your problems. 8)
 

Your Nail Pro

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Hello, just thought I would jump in here.....

I use(d) Radical for a long, long time and I started having problems with pocket lifting last year. I also have experienced pocket lifting with gels, very rarely, but have had it happen.

I would agree that pocket lifting is most likely not just a problem with Ret+ or Creative products, however I don't think there is just one common denominator like mix ratio, although I do understand the reasoning behind this theory, but has this theory been proven to be the only one or is there possibly another theory? Is that what you were saying about talking to Doug Schoon, geeg? Maybe to find out more on pocket lifting?

But while I was using Radical I had some clients with pocket lifting and some without pocket lifting. I have done nails for 10 years and if I know one thing to be true-I definately have better control over my application now than I did back (way back) then! But I never had a problem with pocket lifting way back then......... just last year it started.

WEIRDNESS! ;o) That is why I do mostly gels now and I personally think gels will continue to have a very bright future!
 

accentuous

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Not to cause any problems ... but...
I have to speak up about this cause I've been doing nails since 1987 and have been having problems with pocket lifting for some time now. I was using Star poducts up until about 8 years ago then switched over to Creative Nail Radical. About 2 years ago I swithed to Ret+ and have been struggling since. It's not every client but it's enough to drive me crazy. The really hard part is I work with the girl who was the Creative Nail educator for Hawaii and I attended her classes. I even asked her what she thought the problem was. She said probably my ratio or my technique. I watch her apply her product. It looks the same as mine. She doesn't seem to be having any problem with lifting or pockets. So.... what's a girl to do?? Because I keep thinking it's me, I've hung with this product even though the results haven't been great. Also, in Hawaii, we don't have access to many different kinds of acrylic products. I should go back to a primer system but I keep thinking I'm going to solve this. I am now on the lookout for a different product.
 

MichelleAU

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About 4-5 months ago on the beautytech boards this exact discussion was held and it appeared there was dozens of techs suddenly experiencing pocket lifting with Retention. Most were experienced techs and this had just started happening...

I use EzFlow so I can't comment :D
 

Nails by Shelley

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I too have had pocket lifting with retention +! don't know what causes it. I do love the CND line, and am bound to figure it out!!! Even if it kills me doing so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:
 

Mrs Gadget

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I have been using Ret + for 5 months and have had no problems with pocket lifting.

I know this is not a long time but am still interested in hearing your comments.
 

geeg

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Your Nail Pro said:
however I don't think there is just one common denominator like mix ratio, although I do understand the reasoning behind this theory, but has this theory been proven to be the only one or is there possibly another theory? Is that what you were saying about talking to Doug Schoon, geeg? Maybe to find out more on pocket lifting?
Yes!

Looks like there is a problem in the States on this one and Doug should certainly know about it. Have any of you American gals rung the Creative Hot line?? You all should. As a manufacturer, changes can be made if necessary.

We had quite a discussion about this subject and possible causes 'way back' on the board and there are many causes but mix seems the most likely as working too wet with R+ weakens the product and the bond.

Also when working primerless, a really good contact has to be made between the product and the dry prepared nailplate (remember R+ bonds to Keratin so it must have a good contact with keratin) it is necessary to 'press' the product onto the nailplate firmly in all areas before smoothing out. In our training programme here in Europe we concentrate very much on PREP, Mix ratio and Pressing and Smoothing of the product, which could be why this is not a problem here. All our students are brainwashed with it! :D

Please ring Creative and get some advise and tell them your problem. There is a solution. :)
 

Your Nail Pro

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I guess I am baffled because I used Radical, not Ret+. No one has heard of Radical causing pocket lifting.....well I take that back CND hotline did say that it is possible with any of their products..........

But here is what I have done to combat the pocket lifting........

I have talked to Nikki Birch extensively to eliminate all possible problems, practiced my mix ratio until i felt dizzy, took a "Masters Class", called CND hotline, spent countless hours on-line researching and reading until my eyes were bugging, dreamt about pocket lifting, and then ended up with POCKET LIFTING!

So anyway , thanks for listening to my groanin and moanin...I realize you have no control over this but thanks for your reply!

Leigh Ann :O))))))
 

Lexuspilot

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Your Nail Pro said:
I guess I am baffled because I used Radical, not Ret+. No one has heard of Radical causing pocket lifting.....well I take that back CND hotline did say that it is possible with any of their products..........

But here is what I have done to combat the pocket lifting........

I have talked to Nikki Birch extensively to eliminate all possible problems, practiced my mix ratio until i felt dizzy, took a "Masters Class", called CND hotline, spent countless hours on-line researching and reading until my eyes were bugging, dreamt about pocket lifting, and then ended up with POCKET LIFTING!

So anyway , thanks for listening to my groanin and moanin...I realize you have no control over this but thanks for your reply!

Leigh Ann :O))))))
Don't feel bad Christie and LeighAnn....I had the same problems as both of you and I had been using the product for close to 10 years with zero problems and then... BAM. I used Radical as well (and the Retention when it came out, but didn't really like it). To use a product for so long and then have everything fall apart right before you is very frustrating. I battled the pocket lifting for a long time and it won. I did get tired of techs saying "it must be something you're doing..." Well, sorry to say that you don't do nails for 10 years and wake up one morning and forget how to do them! I rehashed every single step I'd take from start to finish, but still had pocket lifting... LOL I simply switched products and all my problems were gone.

I really don't have an answer.....Maybe it is us. But sooooo many over at Beautytech were having the exact same problems and it wasn't a regional thing....it was widespread over the states.....Can't blame weather. I just don't know. I really love CND products but my pocket book just couldn't afford the breakdown any longer.

Just thought I'd throw my $.02 in here.
 

liz

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Hey guys,
I´ve been working with Retention+ for many years and can honestly say that I have never experienced any of the problems I am reading about!!!! :?

I have seen pocket lifting on clients that have come in from other salons using other products, but once the old product has been removed and a new set applied and the clients have been educated to use solar oil daily, I am pleased to say that it has never been seen again. :D

I´m sure if it was a wide spread problem Doug would of heard about by now!! :!:

I truly believe if you are having difficulties then you need to go back to your educator. I´m sure they will get to the root of your problems and help you solve them. :study:
 

The Geek

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HowdA All.

What a thread (or should I say a pain in the butt!)

Well, all of your experiences do very much warrant some more research into this situation.
There are so many variables that go into happy, long term product application that we all sometimes try to boil it down to a magic bullet.
In my experience, there is never 1 reason why a problem occurs. It is always a mix of different things that come together and cause a problem.

Take cracking for example.
The longer the nails... the more the increase % of breakage.
The thinner they are... the more the increase % of breakage.
The further out your mix is... the more the increase % of breakage.
The more finishing is done... the more the increase % of breakage.

etc...etc...etc...

What this means is that you may not see a crack even though the nails are too long, and your mix is whacked out.... but if maybe the one of the rebalances about 4 visits ago happened to be a little aggressive... BAM... that’s the pup that threw it over the edge.

What we all do here as a team (everyone on this board) is work together to explore the difficulties that we experience as professionals... explore the technical, scientific facts, couple them with real life experience, and then explore the solutions to make our jobs easier, funner, and far more effective.

To cap on the pocket lifting...
The scientific data points to 2 key reasons (the core contributing factors...)
Wet mix... (the wetter you go the greater the % of shrinkage, and so the greater the % of pocket lifting)
Thick product application (the thicker your app, the more product "move" during shrinkage)

Many people who had problems with R+ pocket lifting and have success with another system have done little more than added acidic primer to their application. I don't particularly see anything wrong with that... hell... if it works and doesn’t cause a problem... then in my opinion it is a benefit... anyhoo... using primer with R+ would of most likely given them the exact same (if not better in my opinion) results.

Anyhoo.... that just points to other contributing factors and the Primer will act like a mask on the situation.
Is that a bad thing? Hell no. As stated before, if they now are having success and doing it safely... then rock and roll baby!

I am not trying to defend CND or R+, nor discount anyones experiences here (they are invaluable to this board) but for every one tech that has been having problems with pocket lifting... there are thousands that havent.
There are not that many batches made up every year, so effectively we do all work from the same batch. That does not mean that if you have had pocket lifting problems that it should be shrugged off! It sounds to me as if an abnormal amount of people have been having this problem the last year...so.... I for one believe this situation does need much more investigation. I can tell you that it is being looked into at great lengths and while so far there is nothing new to report, I sill look forward to any information we can obtain through the exercise.

Anyhooo..... hope this post helps... I HATE it when I hear of people having problems as a professional (regardless of the product line they use) that is the one key reason this board was made... so we could discuss and help as a whole.

I value every single persons opinion and comments on this and just about every other subject here.

Toooooooodles... and peace yall :revolve:
 

riosol2001

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:shock: i have been using retention+ since the begining of my trainning 12 months ago.i have to admit i did have a problem with pocket lifting and i phoned my teacher up.she told me to make sure my mixed ratio was correct and to also make sure i press the product on to the nail and most importantly to wipe my brush before detailing the smile line.i have since done this and my problem has gone.i do believe that if the brush is even just a little too wet you are leaving the monomer on the nail plate and as soon as you put you'r zone 2 bead on it will not adhere correctly and will lift within days.my opinion may not be worth much as i am very new to the nail industry but given what happend and a little extera care and time spent on wiping the brush and pressing and smoothing the beads i now have no pocket lifting.i hope this works for others .stay cool xxxxxxxxxxxx :shock: :) :shock:
 

Christie's Nails

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Well spoken Geek Master. No wonder we call you 'Grand Master Geek'.
 
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