UV lamp for Gelish?

[user 35377]

I've done a lot of research on UV "light intensity" and how it works with the photo-initiators in gel to "cure" the product and I have not just based my research on what industry R&D people have to say about the issue. But, I do base my choice for not only product, but lamp (fixture) and bulbs (lampes) on what I have learned from those R&D people. And I have been assured that the systems the I use will all cure properly and completely with the lamps that I have purchased. I do have the Shellac lamp only because I bought the whole system at a show, but I will be phasing it out (if it ever sells out)--but I will keep the lamp in use, because it is compatible with my other systems with just a little adjustment in cure time. I am a BIG believer in research and knowing the "ins & outs" of anything you are using and do not like to buy anything based on just adverts and hype.
SO....even if the manufacturer says it's okay, you really need to make sure that you talked to someone at the manufacturer that knows what they are talking about!

 

[The Geek]

I guess the confusion is that there are scientists that have provided research and published data on UV light emission from nail lamps that categorically state not all lamps of the same wattage yield the same amount of UV output. They substantiate that there can in fact be wide UV output disparities between 2 brand new 36w lamps (and even more so once they have been in use). Form factor, bulb placement, bulb brand, shape and even distance of bulbs to fingers make it impossible to categorically claim all x watt lamps accomplish a similar cure.

I totally get that a lot of professionals do not know or understand this. That is one of the reasons I built this site: To discuss, educate and inform.

What confuses me is when a someone is shown facts but blatantly chooses to ignore them on the basis that they have some greater mystical insight (though this is usually less of a mystical and more an economic phenomenon).

I am not aware of any product or technical revolution that has enabled light cured products to cure to completion under all UV lamps within a wattage range - but I also confess that I could have missed the memo. To my knowledge, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to do this.

Now, I am almost positive that there are multiple 36w lamps that will emit similar levels of UV light - but which ones? (Seriously... I want to know!)

I know of a fairly popular and widely used 36w lamp (because its inexpensive) that provides less than 75% of the UV output of a Brisa/Shellac lamp (also a 36w lamp). Using a lamp that consumes the same amount of electricity but emits only 75% of the UV light means that you are undercuring by 25% WITH THE SAME WATTAGE.

I'm seriously not trying to stir up a big debate - ans I am seriously open to any new DATA that anyone can provide. My only purpose in this thread is to present the facts that I am aware of so that a few of those 6k unique visitors per day that come on this site leave better informed so they can make better, more profitable and SAFER decisions for themselves.

 

[MissOwen]

I guess the confusion is that there are scientists that have provided research and published data on UV light emission from nail lamps that categorically state not all lamps of the same wattage yield the same amount of UV output. They substantiate that there can in fact be wide UV output disparities between 2 brand new 36w lamps (and even more so once they have been in use). Form factor, bulb placement, bulb brand, shape and even distance of bulbs to fingers make it impossible to categorically claim all x watt lamps accomplish a similar cure.

I totally get that a lot of professionals do not know or understand this. That is one of the reasons I built this site: To discuss, educate and inform.

What confuses me is when a someone is shown facts but blatantly chooses to ignore them on the basis that they have some greater mystical insight (though this is usually less of a mystical and more an economic phenomenon).

I am not aware of any product or technical revolution that has enabled light cured products to cure to completion under all UV lamps within a wattage range - but I also confess that I could have missed the memo. To my knowledge, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to do this.

Now, I am almost positive that there are multiple 36w lamps that will emit similar levels of UV light - but which ones? (Seriously... I want to know!)

I know of a fairly popular and widely used 36w lamp (because its inexpensive) that provides less than 75% of the UV output of a Brisa/Shellac lamp (also a 36w lamp). Using a lamp that consumes the same amount of electricity but emits only 75% of the UV light means that you are undercuring by 25% WITH THE SAME WATTAGE.

I'm seriously not trying to stir up a big debate - ans I am seriously open to any new DATA that anyone can provide. My only purpose in this thread is to present the facts that I am aware of so that a few of those 6k unique visitors per day that come on this site leave better informed so they can make better, more profitable and SAFER decisions for themselves.

Firstly, i'm not a gel tech,i havent trained in gel, i dont use gel and cant use gel. BUT, i plan to in the future and the discussions about the lamps interest me.

I was just having a look back at another link discussing UV output http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/112236-lamps-uv-output-mystery.html this one.

I think as a person, i dont trust companies to tell the truth, it doesnt matter if i'm buying cereal, shampoo, a tv or nail products! I tend to think they are out to sell me the most expensive thing they can to make money!!! This might not be true of any of them, but i'm always a little sceptical!!

As i noticed in the post above, there seems to be no way of actually telling techs how much output their lamp gives. I would want to know! I like facts and figures to prove to me that the money spent on a new light (instead of using my normal cheap one) is worth it. Could anyon explain (in a uv light for dummys sort of way!) why there is no way of providing this info?

I'm not trying to cause an argument or anything, just honestly interested in the discussion. :green:

 

[The Geek]

Sure but sadly you need equipment.

On page 16 of http://www.lightelegance.com/pdf/technicalbrochure.pdf Jim McConnell gives an example of how to do a "laymans" calculation to get a rough idea of UV output based on bulbs, bulb count, wattage, and lamp area. He then covers the difference in UV output from bulb manufacturers.

There is also a great article from Doug on curing here: http://dougschoon.com/nailpros/article-ProBeautyAU_7-Secrets-to-Curing.pdf

His book goes into this issue in far more depth.

I get "questioning" what people tell you (thats what I'm doing now). What I don't get is dismissing hard data or research because you think a company is trying to sell you a lamp. The lamps are NOT the profit area - the product is. Thats why it would be gold dust to come up with a product that had a simple requirement like "any 36w lamp will fully cure".

So, there you have 2 articles from 2 different people covering the importance of using the correct UV lamp for the product. If someone can provide counter data or research, I would love to see it (seriously).

 

[MissOwen]

Sure but sadly you need equipment.

On page 16 of http://www.lightelegance.com/pdf/technicalbrochure.pdf Jim McConnell gives an example of how to do a "laymans" calculation to get a rough idea of UV output based on bulbs, bulb count, wattage, and lamp area. He then covers the difference in UV output from bulb manufacturers.

There is also a great article from Doug on curing here: http://dougschoon.com/nailpros/article-ProBeautyAU_7-Secrets-to-Curing.pdf

His book goes into this issue in far more depth.

I get "questioning" what people tell you (thats what I'm doing now). What I don't get is dismissing hard data or research because you think a company is trying to sell you a lamp. The lamps are NOT the profit area - the product is. Thats why it would be gold dust to come up with a product that had a simple requirement like "any 36w lamp will fully cure".

So, there you have 2 articles from 2 different people covering the importance of using the correct UV lamp for the product. If someone can provide counter data or research, I would love to see it (seriously).

Thanks for the links, i'm sure they will give me a bit more insight into why the correct lamp is required!

i'm not denying the science behind it at all, just happy to have a little more info for the skeptic in me :green:

 

[shedunlop]

Firstly, i'm not a gel tech,i havent trained in gel, i dont use gel and cant use gel. BUT, i plan to in the future and the discussions about the lamps interest me.

I was just having a look back at another link discussing UV output http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/112236-lamps-uv-output-mystery.html this one.

I think as a person, i dont trust companies to tell the truth, it doesnt matter if i'm buying cereal, shampoo, a tv or nail products! I tend to think they are out to sell me the most expensive thing they can to make money!!! This might not be true of any of them, but i'm always a little sceptical!!

As i noticed in the post above, there seems to be no way of actually telling techs how much output their lamp gives. I would want to know! I like facts and figures to prove to me that the money spent on a new light (instead of using my normal cheap one) is worth it. Could anyon explain (in a uv light for dummys sort of way!) why there is no way of providing this info?

I'm not trying to cause an argument or anything, just honestly interested in the discussion. :green:

Me too! I have been in this industry for 16 years, so long enough to have 'hands on experience' I have used many products in this time, some awful and some very good, including CND (very good) and many others. The lamp issue has always interested me but I work on what I see, even if that is wrong. The facts and figures I need just do not seem to be available to prove to me one way or the other that the UV output is correct or not. UV bulbs fade with time, we are told this over and over again, they don't just go pooof one day they fade over time so when is a lamp giving the correct amount of UV? I know the CND lamps have an indicator light but in general a lot of lamps do not have this.

I am not shy of spending a lot of money on good products or lamps come to that, I have spent a fortune on various lamps in the past made specifically for the products I have been using. I am investing in the new LED lamp which is not cheap by any stretch off the imagination!

Samuel, you are probably right that not all 36w lamps can cure the same but we all know that there are a limited number of manufacturers of UV bulbs in the world, just the same as Corn Flake manufacturers so in a lot of cases we are getting the same thing under a different name. Maybe it is time for the bulb manufacturers to mark the output on each bulb and the product manufacturers to print on the products what output we need. It is just not enough for manufacturers to tell us that only their lamp cures their product as we have no way of knowing if this is correct or 'marketing'. Now please don't get me wrong, I am not accusing any one brand of anything. I know from past experience that CND, in particular, does need it's own lamp and used my Brisa lamp when using Brisa gel, the other lamps did not cure it properly and I knew this by trying and proving it to myself.

It is an interesting subject and it is really good to be able to debate it here in an informative way with mutual respect for each other.

I am afraid though, for a lot of us old girls, we will temper what the large manufacturers, who are trying to sell us their products, tell us, with our own personal experience.

 

[The Geek]

Samuel, you are probably right that not all 36w lamps can cure the same but we all know that there are a limited number of manufacturers of UV bulbs in the world, just the same as Corn Flake manufacturers so in a lot of cases we are getting the same thing under a different name. Maybe it is time for the bulb manufacturers to mark the output on each bulb and the product manufacturers to print on the products what output we need.

This would help - but only to a degree. When those exact same bulbs are placed even slightly closer to the nail, you will get substantially more UV light (Doug's book goes into how fast UV light dissipates). Jim used an example of going to a tanning bed: Would you get the same tan leaving the lid open? Why are they designed so the lid comes as close to you as possible if only the wattage and/or bulbs actually mattered?

All I can go on is the data that I have seen (some I have linked to). Until someone can provide data to the contrary - doesn't it sort of make sense to go with the science?

In a perfect world, lamps would be regulated to where they would have to have a "grading" sticker (like energy efficiency ones) that would state their relative UV output. Problem is - who polices it? More importantly -- who pays for the policing? We would through more expensive lamps. Its all swings and roundabouts.

Actually, in a more perfect world, you could stick a gauge (like a fever strip) into your lamp to determine its UV output (Great tool to REALLY see when your bulbs need changing) sadly you'll never sell enough volume to get them to an affordable price because too many people would see it as a trick to sell UV output sticks! Plus I don't think the technology exists in a cheap enough form or they would be a dime a dozen in the beach in Spain or any other high UV area.

Personally I think there is a great opportunity for lamp manufacturers to invest in measuring lamps UV output and designing system compatible versions but will they invest? Why should they when most of the industry just doesn't care about the UV output - they just want a cheap lamp.

TBH - Its just soooo much easier to just sell stuff without worrying about which lamp to use. Its also much easier to teach L&P without having to worry about pesky mix ratios (it is after all the perfect analogy and let's face it: there are A LOT of companies that don't bother!). But the short term profit from conveniently ignoring the facts has never been (to me anyway) worth the sacrifice of true long term and sustainable success for the professional. I've always felt we had a larger responsibility than that.

Anyhoo - I think I've said my peace. People will ultimately do as they please. At least they will do so with more knowledge now.

If there is any serious data to refute these points - let me know - I'd seriously dig on checking it out.

 

[mum]

There are a few issues here (obviously)

One of them is the fact that there are a LOT of generic gels out there, repotted, renamed and will perform reasonably with any ole lamp, including the really cheap ones. There is often a heat spike involved but so many techs accept this as the norm (just like mixing systems and buying at rock bottom prices from Ebay). I'm sure many of these come here and say "my gel cures fine with xxxx lamp". Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't! Would some people even know?? Lifting and shocking shapes are probably the norm for them too.

For those that take their profession a bit more seriously need to have a bit more information and what there is available is not definitively measurable (a bit like an accurate ratio with L&P).

I can understand those that may be suspicious of a supplier saying that only their lamp is the right one. It's a shame that we are all so familiar with being ripped off.

However, I do think that, in the absence of any more information, we should trust a reputable company that they are providing the best information and it isn't always about sales. An important advance for me is that fact that the balance of the 'system' does away with heat spike.

I tried to get more info on the LED system and couldn't find out much more that I already knew. Doug Schoon wondered how the heat generated would be controlled and the cost of the units. I've experienced it now and it certainly works! The cost is quite high but it has its bonuses.

I don't think there is an easy answer. The 'lowest price' techs will continue along their merry way and those that take pride in their knowledge and understanding will, I believe, need to choose their brand and supplier carefully and believe their advice. There may be a long wait for the definitive answer as there are far too many variables.

 

[ceknott]

Come on... CND can be cured with any UV lamp. UV is UV and gel is gel. Some are faster, the 36W ones, some slower like the Biosculpture one, 18W and the 9 Watts ones are the slowest. BUT I think most of us must the the newest and revolutionary LED lamp whith is fast and cures all gels. Do not believe people who claim only certain gels can be cured with it. LEDs produce UV so they cure all gels

 

[ceknott]

Hi any lamp will cure any gel. Of course everyone would like to sell their own-brand lamp and they can tell yo the exact time. I have also done a lot of research on LED lamps and favour them. I like speed. Some gels will cure thin coats in 5 or 10 seconds. the rest in 20 or 30. That is the difference., That is why some lamps have the minimum timer at 5 seconds and other (of the same make, and same price) at 10 seconds. It is better to get the 5-seconds one and put 5 twice because in future all or the best gels will come in 5 seconds!!!

 

[ValencianNails]

Come on... CND can be cured with any UV lamp. UV is UV and gel is gel. Some are faster, the 36W ones, some slower like the Biosculpture one, 18W and the 9 Watts ones are the slowest. BUT I think most of us must the the newest and revolutionary LED lamp whith is fast and cures all gels. Do not believe people who claim only certain gels can be cured with it. LEDs produce UV so they cure all gels

I think it might be a good idea for you to read the article by Doug Schoon regarding UV lamps/gels!

Here it is: http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/109719-every-user-uv-gels-should-read.html

 

[The Geek]

And any microwave will cook a roast. Seemplz.

 

[dongrinail]

Just interested in how is it possible that any 36w lamp can fully cure the product when virtually all 36w lamps give off varying degrees of UV output?

Thats like saying any white powder will cure a liquid

common nail UV lamp's Wavelength usually is: 365nm
LED nail UV lamp's Wavelengthn is 395~405nm

 

[elmo]

When a product is cured using any old UV Lamp .. that only makes it that much easier for the public to get hold of the pro product and use it themselves.

Personally I'm glad Shallac can only be cured with the CND UV Lamps ... makes it that much more exclusive and purely professional, which I .like .... Allot!! :green:

Sadly this is no longer the case as there are tons of CND lamps on eBay