Bond...James....how does it break?

[Cathie!]

I know that a covalent bond is stronger than a hydrogen bond, I have been told that this is a fact, but why?

Is the hydrogen bond going to break down 'naturally' so quickly that it will make a difference to nail services (enhancements) as compared to a covalent bond which is stronger? Will the hydrogen bond break down before it has grown off the original canvas?

How does a covalent bond as compared to a hydrogen bond (in nails) react under shock, as in a break, bang, stub....do these bonds break down, no they don't, but does the shock make a difference to the damage to the nail plate, which is bonded either way to the product, whether there is a covalent or hydrogen bond in place?

If this makes any sense to anyone, I'd like to hear what you think!

 

[Sassy Hassy]

Can't answer the question Cathie as I'm not a Bond expert. But out of curiosity and a yearn to learn, when would you get a hydrogen bond and when would you get a covalent bond?

 

[Cathie!]

Hmmm that's a good question lol....Ret+ creates a covalent bond with the nail plate....molecular attraction I'm sure....but products which require acid primer create a hydrogen bond between the nail plate and the primer and a covalent bond between the primer and the product...but then again products using an acid free primer create a covalent bond between both.

Probably with Brisa, the liquid bond is what is providing the covalent bond between both, otherwise you wouldn't need it.

My question really I guess is does the type of bond really make a difference in longevity of nail services?

And I want to know why a covalent bond is stronger than a hydrogen bond apart from that it's a fact!

 

[Cathie!]

I was trying today to think of a way of making this thread more interesting or at least more understandable and I think I have been helped out by a debate that has been going on over on a thread started by Nailzoo http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/55733-if-you-were-choose-me.html

Here, we are talking about bonds and the need (or not) for primer.

So back to my wonderings.....what makes a covalent bond stronger than a hydrogen bond and indeed what makes a covalent bond whithout acid free primer ie a direct bond with the nail plate, not a three way bond between nail plate/primer/product (possibly) stronger?

And what difference does the srength of these chemical bonds make to the longevity of nail services?

Will a hydrogen bond that was originally made at the cuticle area break down sooner than the original product has had time to grow off the nail plate?

Will a covalent bond with acid free primer break down sooner than the original product has grown off the nail plate?

Will a covalent bond made directly with the keratin in the nail plate break down sooner than the original product has grown off the nail plate?

How long does it take these bonds to break down naturally?

Does anyone have experience of say curling and put it down to technique when it could have been a breakdown of the chemical bond? Or pocket lifting over time and it could have been a breakdown of the bond?

I don't have the answers but I just wonder about the different bonds and their strength and longevity and why a covalent bond is stronger than a hydrogen bond.

Does anyone know what I am on about or should I just shut my hole lol!

 

[Tricky]

no don't shut up i am interested in the answer too a very good thread xx

 

[*JOANNE*]

no dont shut up cath. this is intersting pity i havent got a clue to the answer, but a good thread

 

[Tiger Jay]

Well Cathie, I've even had a look around in Mr Schoons book and can't find the answers unless I'm not reading it properly!

But let's not give up eh?

 

[Bagpuss]

had to pop over as this thread was highly recommended by Izzi...great questions...dont know the answer though.

Mmmmm...we need a certain Mr Sweet me thinks x

 

[Lellipop]

Where's Doug Schoon when we need him :lol: Great thread Cathie

 

[izzidoll]

From what I have found.....

A hydrogen bond is a special type of attractive interaction that exists between an electronegative atom and a hydrogen atom bonded to another electronegative atom.

This type of bond always involves a hydrogen atom, thus the name.

Hydrogen bonds can occur between molecules (intermolecularly), or within different parts of a single molecule (intramolecularly).[2] The typical hydrogen bond is stronger than van der Waals forces, but weaker than covalent or ionic bonds.

Covalent bonding is a form of chemical bonding that is characterized by the sharing of pairs of electrons between atoms, or sometimes between atoms and other covalent bonds. In short, attraction-to-repulsion stability that forms between atoms when they share electrons is known as covalent bonding.

I think I understand why we do not need to go into this in any great depth in class!!!

Regarding the breakdown of these bonds.......I can only go by personal and non scientific experience.
The hydrogen bond you get when you use Radical monomer is a strong bond...but if the client is heavy handed (the client it is recommended for) and breaks an enhancement it will just snap clean without damage to her natural nail....it will also pick off quite easily once it has been broken/cracked.

With Retention+ I have found that even when clients crack or break an enhancement it does not seem to affect the bond and it says put on the natural nail, and it is more difficult to pick/force off and if picked off is more likely to take a few layers of nail plate with it!!

Not that anyone should be picking off enhancements in any event!!

As regards curling and peeling....I have not really noticed a difference when using both these monomers....I think when all is said and done, if you use the right mix ratio, and apply properly, pressing product onto the nail surface, then service breakdown of any kind really should not occur.

 

[Tricky]

From what I have found.....

A hydrogen bond is a special type of attractive interaction that exists between an electronegative atom and a hydrogen atom bonded to another electronegative atom.

This type of bond always involves a hydrogen atom, thus the name.

Hydrogen bonds can occur between molecules (intermolecularly), or within different parts of a single molecule (intramolecularly).[2] The typical hydrogen bond is stronger than van der Waals forces, but weaker than covalent or ionic bonds.


Covalent bonding is a form of chemical bonding that is characterized by the sharing of pairs of electrons between atoms, or sometimes between atoms and other covalent bonds. In short, attraction-to-repulsion stability that forms between atoms when they share electrons is known as covalent bonding.

I think I understand why we do not need to go into this in any great depth in class!!!

starting to get confused now lol so by not using primer the enhancement is stronger the bond between the enhancement and nail plate is better and less chance of breaking down over time ?

 

[Tricky]

From what I have found.....

A hydrogen bond is a special type of attractive interaction that exists between an electronegative atom and a hydrogen atom bonded to another electronegative atom.

This type of bond always involves a hydrogen atom, thus the name.

Hydrogen bonds can occur between molecules (intermolecularly), or within different parts of a single molecule (intramolecularly).[2] The typical hydrogen bond is stronger than van der Waals forces, but weaker than covalent or ionic bonds.

Covalent bonding is a form of chemical bonding that is characterized by the sharing of pairs of electrons between atoms, or sometimes between atoms and other covalent bonds. In short, attraction-to-repulsion stability that forms between atoms when they share electrons is known as covalent bonding.

I think I understand why we do not need to go into this in any great depth in class!!!

Regarding the breakdown of these bonds.......I can only go by personal and non scientific experience.
The hydrogen bond you get when you use Radical monomer is a strong bond...but if the client is heavy handed (the client it is recommended for) and breaks an enhancement it will just snap clean without damage to her natural nail....it will also pick off quite easily once it has been broken/cracked.

With Retention+ I have found that even when clients crack or break an enhancement it does not seem to affect the bond and it says put on the natural nail, and it is more difficult to pick/force off and if picked off is more likely to take a few layers of nail plate with it!!

Not that anyone should be picking off enhancements in any event!!

As regards curling and peeling....I have not really noticed a difference when using both these monomers....I think when all is said and done, if you use the right mix ratio, and apply properly, pressing product onto the nail surface, then service breakdown of any kind really should not occur.

ok so if your application, mix ratio and apex placement is all perfect you should not need primer?

 

[izzidoll]

ok so if your application, mix ratio and apex placement is all perfect you should not need primer?

Don't forget perfect prep!!!

I have used Radical without primer for years with absolutely no lifting problems...although I just prefer Retention+ because I love its creamier consistency.

Primer is a Prep booster, great for inexperienced tech's unsure if their prep is spot on......but once you know your prep is great, and you are confident in your application, then you can work without your safety net!!!

Bring it back out if you get a problem lifter...as you can use your acid free primer with Retention+.

the other CND prep booster is Nailfresh, for extra dehydration...but I won't go off topic about that!!.

 

[Urban Geek]

ok so if your application, mix ratio and apex placement is all perfect you should not need primer?

I think that is right.

Greath thread Cathie (you sure are inquisitive) and brilliant and informative answer Izzy - Thanks to you both!

 

[talented talons]

Excellent thread Cathie, really got me thinking.

I understand it, that if you use the monomer with no primer, it will be stronger as you haven't introduced another link in the chain which can have a weakness and break down.

If you do use the primer, then although it will be ok, there is always a possibility of a break down later, so less bits added, less chance of breakdown, if i understand it right??

Hope so, or i have fried my brain....:o

 

[Cathie!]

on mobile phone so forgive! Don't forget that if your system requires primer it does so for a reason and That's to create the attraction and thus the bond. Acid primers create hydrogen bonds acid free primers create covalent bonds. I wouldn't ditch the primer if your system requires it. Don't know if other systems using acid free primer would create a covalent bond direc with the nail plate if prep were perfect.

 

[izzidoll]

on mobile phone so forgive! Don't forget that if your system requires primer it does so for a reason and That's to create the attraction and thus the bond. Acid primers create hydrogen bonds acid free primers create covalent bonds. I wouldn't ditch the primer if your system requires it. Don't know if other systems using acid free primer would create a covalent bond direc with the nail plate if prep were perfect.

Good point Cathie!
As I only use CND products that is what I am referring to.
I feel I have been quite clear that I am only talking about Radical & Retention+ monomers and Acid Free primer.

Obviously users of other enhancements systems will need to check with their Educators....
unless of course an Educator from another company would post on this thread for all to see!
Don't be shy!!!

 

[*JOANNE*]

Excellent thread Cathie, really got me thinking.

I understand it, that if you use the monomer with no primer, it will be stronger as you haven't introduced another link in the chain which can have a weakness and break down.

If you do use the primer, then although it will be ok, there is always a possibility of a break down later, so less bits added, less chance of breakdown, if i understand it right??

Hope so, or i have fried my brain....:o

this is what i was thinking...ish

 

[Cathie!]

this is what i was thinking...ish

The acid primer creates a kind of three way bond....imagine a sandwich, the primer being the filling, bottom slice is nail plate and top slice is product.

The primer creates a hydrogen bond with the nail plate, primer is needed to make the attraction and create the bond with the nail plate for monomers that require primer....a bit like if you do a cheese sandwich without butter, the cheese doesn't stick to the bread.

Then the other side of the primer (imagine primer not as a liquid but a solid...GMG uses the analagy of double sided sticky tape) creates a covalent bond with the product.

Now to be quite honest, I don't know what the heck type of a bond would be created with a system requiring primer where primer wasn't used....likely a zilch or very poor bond!

Does this make sense at all?

 

[Cathie!]

My mind has now taken this further, thanks to Izzi....maybe I am now truly obsessed.....

New question.......does the product break down before the bond does? For example, resins create a covalent (strongest) bond with the nail plate, but the single link polymers of the resin break down relatively quickly......so if product is breaking down....with the oldest product being closest to the nail plate, the bond is going to break down also, albeit before its time as the product has broken down first.