Helpful. So you would go against your insurers specific advice leaving you uninsured then I assume? The OP didn't decide just on a whim , her insurers made the situation clear and she did the right thing.
Feeling bad for refusing treatment. Feedback/advice welcome
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Helpful. So you would go against your insurers specific advice leaving you uninsured then I assume? The OP didn't decide just on a whim , her insurers made the situation clear and she did the right thing.
I think you def did the right thing. I don't think that discrimination comes into it. It wasn't like you refused the treatment altogether a doctors note is hardly difficult to get and if it were me I would appreciate your professionalism and it proves you are thorough in your work and ethics.. don't worry about anything negative you didn't do anything wrong.
Well done x
Well done x
Martin Duffy
Well-Known Member
I have a brother and cousin with cerebral palsy and to be honest can't for the life of me understand why an insurer would require a doctors note for a person with cerebral palsy to have a manicure?!!! Personally, as someone who understands the condition to some degree it wouldn't have crossed my mind to ask the insurers about it, but if you're not sure it is the correct thing to do and in your case the blame would have lain firmly in your court should something had happened, so your choice is understandable.
However, I know well the discrimination my brother has faced over the years and the battle my mother has had in getting support, not to mention the physical and emotional challenges required to parent him, so neither would I be too hard on the mum.
However, I know well the discrimination my brother has faced over the years and the battle my mother has had in getting support, not to mention the physical and emotional challenges required to parent him, so neither would I be too hard on the mum.
Lunarstorm
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your reply Martin, it is helpful to have feedback from a person who is trained and has personal experaince when cerebral palsy.
In my case, I do not have any understanding of this condition, so felt it best to double check with my insurance company. My insurance company informed me that I would only be covered if I had a medical consent letter. I think the problem for the insurance company must be to do with the massarge side of the treament and possibly the use of my metal tools during PEP.
I totaly understand how this mother must be feeling. I myself have a disabled mother who until resently has been wheelchair bound for a good 15 years (she had surgery recently which has given her some use of her legs again). I also have one child with a hearing impairment, who has to date recevied 8 surgeries. I also found out two days ago that my youngest sons school is refering him for assesment, as they are concerned he may have autisum, which was a bit of a shock. He has always been harder to reason with then the other children, full of energy and gets very upset when he ethier does not get his own way or if there is a change in his routin, but I have always put this down to him just being more willful and having a lot more engery than the only 3 boys.
My point is, that I understood why the mother was not very happy about the sitituation as I could relate to her, having had to deal with my mothers care (I was her full time carrer until I had my yougest) and my own dealing with hospitals and doctors when you own children. This is why I was thinking of putting together a goodwill gester in the form of products. I know full well, that I will not have anything to gain by this action (ie her custom) as she must feel quite upset and offended by my refusal even though I explained that I did want to do the treatment but could not without the medical consent letter. I can totaly see it from her point of view and on a personnal level, I feel really bad about the action I had to take as a professional.
Sam xxx
I think personally I would have asked more about the palsy, for example, it could be a tightening in one leg, and not affect her arms or hands. Its not always complete involuntary movement of the body and though sometimes its very clear that someone has cerebral palsy its not always noticeable to the outside world as its so mild. There is someone quite close to home that just has one leg affected but still goes to ballet and does all th normal things, should she be refused also?
My initial feeling is what is wrong with a manicure if the arms and hands are fine?
I undersatnd some situations that are a total no-no and this debate will divide the geeks as its a grey area, but also that you have to adapt your processes sometimes as I believr in inclusion as much as possible.
My initial feeling is what is wrong with a manicure if the arms and hands are fine?
I undersatnd some situations that are a total no-no and this debate will divide the geeks as its a grey area, but also that you have to adapt your processes sometimes as I believr in inclusion as much as possible.
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In the UK we have something called the Disability Discrimination Act which sounds similar to the US version.
Personally, I think the insurers advice was wrong on two counts:
1. No parental consent required as the daughter is over 16 years old and her disability is physical not mental.
2. By requiring a medical certificate from her doctor, they are treating her differently to a person without a disability. This might be justified legally depending on the disability but I can't see it in this case, although I have no knowledge of this particular client.
Therefore, if it had been me, I would have been inclined to offer the service and would have threatened to sue the insurers if they refused to provide cover.
But that's just me (and I relish a legal challenge...
)
However, I'm not advocating anyone else to ignore advice from their insurers but you can always challenge the advice and ask them to refer to a manager etc.
At least that way, they might refer it to someone properly (legally) qualified within the company who will consider the issue more carefully in line with UK laws.
Personally, I think the insurers advice was wrong on two counts:
1. No parental consent required as the daughter is over 16 years old and her disability is physical not mental.
2. By requiring a medical certificate from her doctor, they are treating her differently to a person without a disability. This might be justified legally depending on the disability but I can't see it in this case, although I have no knowledge of this particular client.
Therefore, if it had been me, I would have been inclined to offer the service and would have threatened to sue the insurers if they refused to provide cover.
But that's just me (and I relish a legal challenge...
)However, I'm not advocating anyone else to ignore advice from their insurers but you can always challenge the advice and ask them to refer to a manager etc.
At least that way, they might refer it to someone properly (legally) qualified within the company who will consider the issue more carefully in line with UK laws.
Lunarstorm
Well-Known Member
In the UK we have something called the Disability Discrimination Act which sounds similar to the US version.
Personally, I think the insurers advice was wrong on two counts:
1. No parental consent required as the daughter is over 16 years old and her disability is physical not mental.
2. By requiring a medical certificate from her doctor, they are treating her differently to a person without a disability. This might be justified legally depending on the disability but I can't see it in this case, although I have no knowledge of this particular client.
Therefore, if it had been me, I would have been inclined to offer the service and would have threatened to sue the insurers if they refused to provide cover.
But that's just me (and I relish a legal challenge...
However, I'm not advocating anyone else to ignore advice from their insurers but you can always challenge the advice and ask them to refer to a manager etc.
At least that way, they might refer it to someone properly (legally) qualified within the company who will consider the issue more carefully in line with UK laws.
Binglebongle, the reason the insurance company asked for a letter of parental consent, is because the mother had already told me that the daughter has learning disabilities and hearing impairment linked to the cerebral palsy.
I do not think ethier myself or the insurance company have discriminated againist the person. From the reading I have done, cerebral palsy effects brain and nervous system functions such as movement, learning, speech, hearing, seeing, and thinking, as well as cause the person pain.
As a result, the insuarance company has simplie asked for a letter to confirm that it would be safe for this younger lady to receieve the treatment and that there is no medical reason which would cause pain or injury as a result, of for examplie, massarge, as this could cause this 17 year old pain.
With the sue happy culture we have these days, you have to cover yourself and can not "just take the word" of a person whom you do not know. This mother "could" tell me whatever she liked to get me to proform the treatment but she "could" be lying. Then if something did happen during the treatment, this mother could go on to sue me for every penny I have and distroy my business.
I'm not saying that this mother is lying in anyway but it is a risk I and my insurance company are not willing to take. I think in this day and age, to except any business to take such a risk on the "word" of an unknown person is irresponsible and unrealistic.
At no piont have I refused to treat this young lady outright, I have made it clear that I would love to carry out this treatment as long as I have the medical consent requiried to ensure no harm comes to this 17 year old.
When I posted this thread, I did so with the view of seeing if I should make some sort of goodwill gester so that this 17 year old could still benefit from the Gift Certificate that I gave out as a raffle prize. I wanted to know other peoples thoughts on this, as I did not what to further offend or upset the mother or daughter but felt like I should try and make some sort of compromise, so there where no bad feelings.
At the end of the day, the insurance company has given me instruction and as a professional, I am bound to follow that instruction. My personnal feeling have no place within business.
Sam xxx
chazz!!
Well-Known Member
It wouldnt have crossed my mind to not do the treatment. I would have used common sence. And adapted the treatment.
I would maybe of used a rubber hoof stick for cuticals, no metal tools done a gental file. If need be i would have done just a file and paint i cant see the harm in that at all. Iv done quite a few treatments on disabled people you just use your common sence.
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I would maybe of used a rubber hoof stick for cuticals, no metal tools done a gental file. If need be i would have done just a file and paint i cant see the harm in that at all. Iv done quite a few treatments on disabled people you just use your common sence.
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Sam you did the right thing. Common sense is what you used, you contacted your insurers and that's what common sense is, you need to put yourself first and cover yourself and you did. All the rest is irelevant. It shows you are a nice person by wanting to do a gift basket.
Hey Sam
I have been watching this thread with some interest, I even wrote out a long reply earlier but my phone managed to delete it this morning, anywho hun I wanted to actually commend you on your professionalism, thought for your client and for also protecting your business. WELL DONE YOU!
Whilst we may not agree with our insurance companies decisions at times, or feel constrained by their limitations, our insurance is not just a piece of paper. Insurance is just as important as our training, genuine products and so on.
Sam I think you have done everything you can for this young lady and as a customer I would be asking the other salon I went to, why they hadn't taken then time to do this also. Your post I have quoted above is spot on hun!
With regards to discrimination the insurance company have asked for a doctors note, they haven't refused insurance and said Sam can never do this treatment on the client, they are just asking for the go ahead from the clients doctor to ensure nothing in Sam's treatment could harm the client, thus leading to a possible insurance claim. I'm sure many would be up in arms if a therapist went ahead with a treatment which caused a problem for the client and not only harmed them but could possibly increase everyone elses insurance premiums also, think of this in relation to car insurance and uninsured drivers. With regards to parental consent Sam you've explained that perfectly too.
Hun you have stuck to what you do best.... and that's nails. We should all leave insurance brokers and doctor to do what they do best and make those medical and legal decisions for us. Nobody knows peoples individual health conditions, of which they can even vary from person to person, so we HAVE to rely on said doctors and insurance companies.
Sam you have put your clients needs first, you have rung your insurance company, they have given you the information and you have kindly and thoroughly explained it to your clients Mum, what she now chooses to do with that information is up to her. Don't beat yourself up about it hun. If you feel you would like to send her some complimentary bits and bobs, I think this is a kind gesture and shows what a kind and considerate person and business woman you are. However you are under no obligation to do so as you are simply following your insurance policy to protect your client and your business!
Love n hugs to you hun! xxxx
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Lunarstorm
Well-Known Member
I actualy find this comment very insulting. It implies that I do not have the common sence to make responsible decisions. The treatment requested was a luxary spa maincure not just a basic file and polish. As I have no first hand knowledge of cereral palsy, I used my common sence and did the only responsible thing, by seeking advice from a company with superior knowledge on the best way to proceed.
A parting thought for you, what will you do if/when something goes wrong with a treatment and you find your in court with no insurance as it is void because you should not have carried out said treatment but choose to "use your common sence as you thought you knew better and took the word of s stranger as fact"
We are not doctors and do not have the knowledge to make informed decision related to anyone with any health condition.
I have no doubt I acted in the best interest of this 17 year old girl and with regards to that, my conscience is clear and I will sleep well at night. I also know I did the only right thing for a true professional nail techican to do, but protecting myself, my business and my insurance company from a possible law suit.
Admin, could you please close this thread now, as it is turning personnal, which was never my intentsion. I was looking at input on how to still honor my comment to the Gift Certificate as I felt bad on a personnal level as one human being to another, not a professional level.
chazz!!
Well-Known Member
Sorry i did not mean to offend or imply you had no common sence. Just that i would not of even thought to ring my insurers. I would of just adapted the treatment to somthing more appropriate
If i knew beforehand that i would not be coverd i wouldnt do it. But i wouldnt ask as if i asked my insurence everytime i had anyone in with a medical problem i would awalys be on the phone. Most of my clients are 60+ with all sort wrong with them. I follow the guidlines from college i.e. Diabetics no waxing. High blood pressure no massage without doctors note.
And i realy dont see what could go wrong with a file and paint. Or how i could hert her. But i probaly would make realy happy having her nails done with her mum.
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If i knew beforehand that i would not be coverd i wouldnt do it. But i wouldnt ask as if i asked my insurence everytime i had anyone in with a medical problem i would awalys be on the phone. Most of my clients are 60+ with all sort wrong with them. I follow the guidlines from college i.e. Diabetics no waxing. High blood pressure no massage without doctors note.
And i realy dont see what could go wrong with a file and paint. Or how i could hert her. But i probaly would make realy happy having her nails done with her mum.
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Baggybear
Well-Known Member
You SHOULD be ringing your insurers to check what their policy will & won't cover you for, especially if your treating a lot of people with illnesses or medical conditions. It is YOUR responsibility to do this.
How will you pay out the money for legal representaion, court fees (yours & possibly theirs if the case goes against you), and the big payment of the award made against you IF one of your clients sues you for a treatment and your insurance company say your policy is void because you should not have done the treatment because of the clients medical condition.
You are personally responsible to cover all the costs mentioned above if you choose to do a treatment without insurance cover. Unless you have asked your insureres what their position is, you will not know what you can & can't do to people with medical conditions or illnesses.
What college advises you on your training as contra-idications and contra-actions is one thing BUT it is advisable to check regularly if things have changed. Will you still be just going on what college said 5 or 10 years down the line even though medical advances will have definatley been made.
Asking for a medical/Dr note is not discrimination, it is part of our insurance terms. Totally refusing to do the treatment when only a medical note is needed is discrimination. The OP is not even questioning if she did the correct thing in demanding a Dr note to proceed.
She was asking for people's opinions & suggestions on what she might do to make the mum & daughter feel more possitive towards the situation, maybe by gifting them a basket of products or something else nice to ease the situation.
Personally I think the OP did all she could and there is no more that needs to be done. She has suggested that someone else use the voucher or get the Dr note so she can proceed and treat the young girl, the ball is in the mum's court and she has options so I think things should be left at that.
I do not think she should send anything else to them.
chazz!!
Well-Known Member
I never said anything about Discrimination nor did i ask for an opinion on how i run by business, i simply said what would do if it were me. And i run quite a sucsessfull salon. You cant be ringing everytime someone says their on these meds and they have this problem. Again i see no reason y the girl couldnt have file and paint so this is what i would have offered and therefore would not have rang insurence. If the mother was not happy with this i then would have rang to see if it was alright for her to have a full manicure.
Offer an apropreate alternative. Some one with high blood presure cant have massage but they can have somthing else. Or a diabetic cant have waxing but could have somthing else.
What damage could a file and polish possibly do please tell me. Im intriged. X
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Offer an apropreate alternative. Some one with high blood presure cant have massage but they can have somthing else. Or a diabetic cant have waxing but could have somthing else.
What damage could a file and polish possibly do please tell me. Im intriged. X
Sent from my GT-P1000 using SalonGeek
As per OP's request, now is the time close this thread.
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