Extended use of glycolic causing over thickening?

[Nika]

Hi There Ladies,

I am about to start working with MD formulations and was talking to another much more experienced therapist (who now owns her own training school) about working with glycolic and she stated that glycolic is great as a 'skin workout' but extended use will over-thicken the skin and cause other problems such as sensitisation and pigmentation (which I thought would only happen if you didn't use an SPF religiously). She acknowledged that it glycolic can give great results but recommended 3 months on glycolic and then switch to something not as exfoliating for a while to prevent this from happening.

I spoke to an MD business development manager about this and he said that contrary to popular belief glycolic does not thin the skin but as the other therapist said it does thicken it to help improve barrier function. As to over-thickening he said this shouldn't happen because you are constantly bringing up new skin cells and exfoliating the old ones off. I understand that you are constantly bringing up new skin cells but would this not perhaps cause an over-reaction and eventual over-thickening in the skin?

I am confused and did not have a chance to go into this question with the MD BDM in detail. I am hoping to get advice off the salon geek ladies so that I might get a more objective opinion and any experiences with the long-term use of glycolic (the BDM had actually been using MD for 8 years after he was recommended it by the plastic surgeon who removed some skin cancers from his face and said it would help with the scarring - which is not visible anymore!) Thanks for your opinions!!

 

[essentia]

Hi The use of glycolics do thicken the skin over time - it is one of the great uses of it to plump the epidermis and dermis. When peels are overused for the clients skin type they can suffer from pigmentation and other problems as described. The skin after all can only take so much and what can start of as being beneficial can cause problems with over use. Yes you must use SPF but careful limitation and record keeping can ensure that clients only reap the benefits of any method of peeling/rejuvenation.

 

[weezie]

I've never heard of it thickening the skin. I know about the pigmentation that could be caused by sun exposure afterwards due to the thinning of the skin meaning the rays penetrate more easily.

Glycolic definitely exfoliates as it breaks down sticky bonds, you can immediately feel an improvement in texture. It also hydrates and encourages cell renewal therefore producing less lined, plumper skin this would cause skin to become marginally deeper but surely not "thicker" in the dense sense.

How much use is overuse that would cause this to happen? Surely this would only happen if the peel was left on too long or used too frequently and caused a burn resulting in scar tissue? :hug:

 

[GLAMOUR BEAUTY]

Glycolic does cause pigmentation, even if sunblock is used.

I was once told that these kid of products are really designed for people who live in south africa ect as they have thicker skin. People who live in the uk have thiner skin.

 

[kel's25]

hi ya, i know you have to be careful in the sun as you can be photo sensitive after aha etc.
also i have been told before that over use stimulates too much cellular renewal, understanding the thickening of the skin.

xx

 

[weezie]

Glycolic does cause pigmentation, even if sunblock is used. How? I have used it for 4 years and have not experienced this I am white as white skinned so would really notice this!

I was once told that these kid of products are really designed for people who live in south africa ect as they have thicker skin. People who live in the uk have thiner skin.

Surely if what you say is true then they wouldn't want to use it then as it would be causing major skin damage with the UV strength in Africa being so much stronger and if it thickened the skin and their skins are thicker this would be of no benefit! When used with sun protection it does not cause pigmentation, how could it? Where did you get this information from? Does anyone actually have any scientific backing to these claims please as if it is true it is very important for us to know.

It is not actually suitable for dark skins as it can bleach the skin, although it may have been developed in South Africa as I know Nimue products are they are not developed for darker skins.

 

[dete101]

I am MD formulations trained but haven't used it for a few years as now have my own salon and use dermalogica. In my opinion, it thins the skin as glycolic penetrates the skin very quickly. It gives fantastic results very quickly but overuse does thin and shows up thread veins. Lots of my clients commented on this, and also I have found I have lots of them now round my nose. there are many more products on the market now, some of them better, with different, effective AHA's in them. When I did my training, we were advised to use MD with a product called Vitace... not sure if thats still around. the logo behind the training was Vitace would stop more skin damage whilst MD would repair it. 10 yrs on and my advice would be, use a good skin care regime, exfoliate regularly but more importantly use a good SPF to prevent further damage from free radicals!

 

[Nika]

[quote=weezie;780105] When used with sun protection it does not cause pigmentation, how could it? Where did you get this information from? Does anyone actually have any scientific backing to these claims please as if it is true it is very important for us to know.

Thanks for all your advice, I really appreciate it! I have found some information (written by and sourced from doctors and scientific studies) that is really an interesting read. Although it doesn't really go in to answer my original main question very much.. haha

I wasn't talking in terms of peels so much as in terms of home care, as with peels we have some control over whether the client (or ourselves) undergo peels. If we look at a client's skin and see that giving them a glycolic peel would be a bad option or that their skin couldn't cope with it we wouldn't give one. But with homecare that is something all people should be using on an ongoing basis and I am worried that recommending (or using) the home products on-goingly will do some damage as I stated in the initial post.

As for the extra information that answers some of the other issues brought up here is what is states (and I will add the link for you girls to read to too): 'According to Dr. David E. Bank, author of Beautiful Skin, alpha hydroxy acids cause increase exfoliation of the outer layer of skin, unplog pores, and function as a humectant to hydrate the skin. Bank also mentions that AHAs have further been shown to reverse sun damage in the epidermis, and to stimulate collagen and elastin production in the dermis. Dr. Leslie Baumann, author of Cosmetic Dermatology, further adds that AHAs have been reported in improving mottled pigmentation, fine lines, surface roughness, freckles, lentingines, and to treat actinic and seborrehic keratosis. ' The article also states that 'The epidermis is thinned after use of AHAs. However, interestingly, the overall thickness of the skin is increased after use of glycolic acid, as treatment has been shown to increase expression of Type 1 Collagen mRNA and hyaluronic acid content in the dermis of the skin... 'For anti-aging treatments, glycolic acid is usually preferred to lactic acid because it has a smaller molecular structure, which allows it to easily and efficiently penetrate the skin, and also because glycolic acid increases the thickness and firmness of the skin, but lactic acid does
not. http://futurederm.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/spotlight-on-alpha-hydroxy-acids/.'

According to this article the glycolic causes fibroblasts to produce more collagen, so I'm wondering if on-going glycolic use would then constantly cause this to happen and over-thicken the skin? hmm perplexing!
Again let me know what you think! Thank you!!

 

[weezie]

In my opinion it is stating that the collagen increase is a positive thing at no point does it say anything negative and I do not believe it would cause thickening as cell renewal and breakdown is a cyclic process that slows with age, encouraging it can only give positive results. :hug:

 

[Nika]

Thanks Weezie, that's what I thought when I read the article too but I wanted some advice from more practical sources (as in you ladies who work and see these issues everyday - not a company trying to sell their goods)
I have used the products myself as well and found that my skin looked great in a short space of time, but I was too scared to keep using them after what the other therapist said! Also, now that I will be working with them I didn't want to continually recommend products to my clients that I am too scared to use myself because of long-term damage, even thought the results I've noticed in the short term are great. So now I feel a bit more at ease.. I did notice what Dete101 said about thread veins and I will keep an eye on this issue, not all the products in the range are high in glycolics & they have re-formulated many of their products so I am able to build people up and see how they go Thank you!

 

[weezie]

I would have thought any capillary damage would be due to sun damage so high sun factor regularly applied will prevent this problem :hug: Glycolic is great, don't be scared of it. It is one of the only treatments that all scientists agree actually works as you can't argue with science!

 

[essentia]

I work with Nimue products and they state from their research that glycolics thicken the dermis and epidermis after a period of time in a positive way. Capillary damage can be caused by indiscriminate use of retinoids (vitamin A products as well as sun damage).

However glycolics when used in the correct way will enhance and rejuvenate. I agree not to be put off by them as when used by a trained and client centred therapist good results can be obtained.

 

[Curly Bamboo]

Hmm, I don't understand where the myth of using of glycolic causes thinning of the skin comes from because it is not true. What it does is compacts the top layers of the epidermis to give you smoother skin.

Glycolic is fantastic but you will find most leading skincare now will use a higher percentage of lactic acid in their AHA formulation because lactic acid is less irritable and more hydrating to the skin.

Many years ago wen I was living in Australia, I used MD formulation with sun defense everyday and the vitamin A cream. The results were very good and I did not have uneven pigmentation.

 

[jc_walden]

Hi all

An interesting thread.

I would like to start to offer glycolic, lactic and salicylic skin peels in my salon as the results seem fantastic.

I have received conflicting advice on things:

some say I have to be a nurse or doctor and that i cannot insurance unless i am - I am not either a doctor or nurse.

some say there are special laws that apply to these treatments such as i can only apply certain % strenghs with certain PH values

and some say the opposite.

I am very very confused and would really appreciate some authorititave advice or pointing in the right direction.

Thanks
JC