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my favorite subject, pocket lifting...not

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Christie's Nails

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ok Master Geek...I think I have found a pattern with my center pocket lifting...
It mostly happens on nails that have the natural nail grown out all the way under the acrylic... either a full set overlay or once the nail has grown out enough that there is no more tip left under the acrylic.
While a client still has tips I know her nails will be nearly perfect when she comes in for her fill. As soon as this same client has had enough fills that her natural nail is the only thing under the acrylic...instant pocket lift...well maybe not instant. But even if I completely remove the old acrylic and overlay with fresh stuff...pocket lift.
Could this add to your theory of shrinkage...more area to shrink so more shrink? but wait....when there is a plastic tip the acrylic could still shrink..could it not? why does it not center pocket lift then??? hmmmm :?:
I will be waiting for your response... ;)
 

Your Nail Pro

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I notice the exact same thing with pocket lifting. However, I notice it on people who have really dry nail plates and they tend to wear their nails longer with an acrylic overlay instead of tip.

So I decided to come here with Christie to gang up! So, can the Bigger Geek help out the Smaller Geeks? There has got to be a reasonable explanation for all of this, right?

This geek personally does not like to do new full sets all of the time! I want those nails to stay on for a whole year! I know I have to be more reasonable with this request, however I do have some clients who we only do a new full set every.... year. Ok, ok, so I am stubborn. But some people just don't really need a new set. It cuts in to my time and I have too many clients to be doing so many repairs and full sets! :D
 

The Geek

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Christie's Nails said:
As soon as this same client has had enough fills that her natural nail is the only thing under the acrylic...instant pocket lift...well maybe not instant. But even if I completely remove the old acrylic and overlay with fresh stuff...pocket lift.
Could this add to your theory of shrinkage...more area to shrink so more shrink? but wait....when there is a plastic tip the acrylic could still shrink..could it not? why does it not center pocket lift then???
hmmmm. you guys... all ganging up on me :D

This one could branch in a couple directions.
Could the first instance (grown out tip) be contributed through curling?
i.e. the clients plates begin to curl... lift toward Zone 2... you replace and BAM! Pocket o lift?

Ah... just thought of this to add into the mix:
If you just soaked the enhancment off, the plate will then be even drier than normal... you put product on... maybe larger surface area (more physical movement during cure), maybe thicker in zone 2, maybe a touch wetter... than the plate returns to normal moisture content (actually, it increases as moisture will build up in the plate while wearing enhancements)... and now we have:

4 contibuting factors

applied on excessively dry plate + Large surface area + slightly thicker application + slightly wetter application

This may be enough (not sure... just theorising now) to get the pocket.
Im not saying your apps are thick or wet...

Here we have 4 contributing factors. If we only had 3... maybe we wouldnt see it. If we only had 2 we most likely woulndt see it.

hmmm... gonna have to have a think about this one... its perplexing me.

Ill give it a good think and post a lil later.

:? perplexed....
 

Christie's Nails

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ok, I think the soaking off..making the nail dryer...etc.. idea is a good one. I started soaking off problem nails by putting acetone on a cotten ball and wrapping the individual finger. I thought it would save time instead of filing the acrylic off. I started this only the past summer...and that is exactly when my pocket lifting became a problem. I was a little suspicous of it so have since stopped doing it. I just could not figure out how a dryer nail plate would contribute to lifting. That is a very good thought... It would not explain all my pockets but definitly helps...
Keep em coming...you have good ideas.
p.s. we are not ganging up on you...we are desperate women at the end of our rope...lol...we luv ya!
;)
 

Nikki Birch

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I, personally, do not use an electric file and I never have problems with pocket lifting. I used to have one of the techs I worked with do my nails from time to time (when I was in a hurry or feeling lazy). Anyway, this particular tech used an electric file. Everytime she did my nails I would get pocket lifting. Even though I never felt heat from the file, I attributed the pocket lifting to an electric file being used to do the finishing work since that was the only difference from when I did my nails and when she did them.

Just a little food for thought....
 

Your Nail Pro

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Nikki,

I do use an electric file on 2 people that I can think of that are getting pocket lifting. Their nails always seem thicker because they are really rough with their nails, they work in retail, and maybe I pile it on a little thicker. But I am sure that their are others that I am not e-filing that have pocket lifting........I will analyze that a little more. I even went as far as making a list of people who care wearing acrylics, and then noting pocket lifting on the specific individuals. I am going to narrow this down! :!:

Anyway food for thought like you said.

Leigh Ann
 

Your Nail Pro

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Main Geek,

You said "applied on excessively dry plate + Large surface area + slightly thicker application + slightly wetter application"

I agree somewhat with this. I am noticing pocket lifitng on thumbs more often and nails that are wider by nature and nails that are overlay on top of natural nail. I have two clients that fit this description and come to think of it both are diabetic. Very dry brittle nails. I agree that I tend to get a little slap happy (as in slapping on the acrylic too thick) when doing their thumbs because I have to practically divide the nail in to two sections vertically to apply the acrylic because the nail plate is so wide. I probably work too wet when doing this also because it is the last nail I do.

Oh wait a minute! I just thought about something! I do the left thumbnail last during a fill in and it is usually the worst nail that has pocket lifted. Hmmm.....and I notice at this point sometimes that the liquid is not absorbing the powder properly causing me to work a little wetter. More Hmmm....I better go think about this some more. Make more notes...analyze analyze....I feel like a mad scientist or something!

Any feedback in the meanwhile would be greatly appreciated!

:?
 

Nikki Birch

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.....with the electric file thing......although I did notice that she has more problems with pocket lifting than I do.....but not on everyone....just some of her clients. It could be, like anything else, some methods work on some people while other methods work on others.

As for the thumbs.......this is kinda funny......I was opening a bag of potato chips one time. You know how you use both hands to pull the bag apart? Well, I did that and just happened to be looking at my thumbnails while I was pulling on the bag. Like a dummy, I stood there and watched my nails lift while I was pulling open the bag!!! I didn't "think" I was using my nails to open the bag but apparently, I was! Or at the very least, putting enough pressure on them from the free edge to cause what looked very similar to pocket lifting.

So there's even ANOTHER thing to think about!

Good Luck with this one! Sounds like there are MANY factors to take into account!
 

Christie's Nails

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I have never used a drill so that cannot be a contributing factor for my pockets...
but Leigh Ann...that is something to contemplate....the monomer in the dappen dish maybe has enough junk in it by the last nails to force you to work wet. That is something else I think I will try to pay attention to. Verrrry interesting....
I think there are many little things that can cause these pockets...gee like I don't have enough to worry about. I am only trying to keep 1000 bits of information right at the front of my brain for quick access. No wonder I forget to close my front door.
Seriously I forgot to close the door last week and I was gone for 6 hours. I got home and our dog was sitting right in front of the door on the porch, with the door wide open....good boy Smokey!
 

Christie's Nails

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That sounds exactly like what I call pocket lifting. It happened to me tying my sons soccer shoes once. Sometimes when I carry a couple bags of groceries into the house I will get some pockets. But shouldn't the acrylic bond to the nail be stronger than that? I mean these are at the end of our finger and will take some abuse no matter how careful we are. Of course if you were out building a rock wall with out gloves you are going to mess up your nails but opening a bag of chips? If one of my clients gets pocket lifing from opening a bag of chips I consider that my fault. Operator error. I want my acrylic nails to be tougher than that.
just my opinion.
 

Nikki Birch

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I never have problems with pocket lifting. The potato chip bag incident was an isolated incident. That particular bag of potato chips was a toughy.......I was struggling with it to open it. The pressure was coming direct from the free edge....kinda like when you bang your nail on the back of the counter when cleaning it. ouch! No pain involved with the potato chip bag though. :) The potato chip bag is just an example of a very simple task that took it's toll on my nails that day.

One of my greatest learning experiences on what I use my nails to do things with came one time when I had to remove my enhancements to attend a training session. I had some length to my natural nails when I soaked off my enhancements (short...working length). Without the enhancements I could "feel" every little thing I used my nails for and didn't even realize it! The most startling revolation came when I was opening a loose powder compact (the kind the lid slides off and on). I could "feel" the pressure being put on nails from grasping the lid to remove it. I was stunned at all those little, simple daily task that I was using my nails for. And I'm a professional!!! Imagine what client's do to their nails......and they don't even think about it.

My point is that clients don't even realize the things they do with their nails that can cause them to lift. It's not always the nail technicians fault and it can be very difficult to figure the cause of problems....especially when the client swears she didn't do anything. I normally tell nail technicians that if they're seeing the problem on one or two clients, then it's probably something the client is doing to their nails. If you're seeing the same problem <---keyword> on many clients, the technician is the common denomenator and it's something the tech is doing.

Yes, the bond made to the natural nail is a strong one; however, it's not impervious to abuse. In my situation, I was using my nails in a manner that I shouldn't have been. Had I been a normal client, I probably would've been in to see my nail tech telling her "I didn't do anything....it just lifted". Isn't that what they all say?
 

Christie's Nails

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Last June I was on vacation then came back and was slammed with clients so I ended up having to go 5 weeks without a fill. My nails were perfect after 5 weeks except that they were grown out. At one point I painted gold glitter and a chevron on my nails just to hide the fact that they had grown out so much. and since I love to share...
So after that I was thinking that everyone who ever had problems with their nails must be beating the heck out of them. I did not believe them when they said that they had not done anything to them.
Then.....
I noticed my first pocket in August. Since then I have been fighting pocket lifting. Because I have seen this on my own nails it really frustrates me. With the slightest bit of pressure it will lift in the center.
Since then I have been trying all sorts of things, talking to CND on the phone, talking to other techs. I know one day I will look back at this and think "the answer was so simple" but right now it makes me feel like a loser nail tech.
I hope my frustration did not come through too much on that last post. ;)
 

The Geek

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HowdA All...

I really am slightly hesitant to offer this solution up... though it can help on clients who frequently have pocket lifting.

Before applying your Zone 2 and Zone 3 bead... Take a virtually dry brush and pre-wet Zone 2 with monomer.

Be very careful not to over saturate the area... and be doubly sure you don't let monomer absorb into the surrounding tissue. In this case... less is best.

The monomer can help pre-coat the natural nail so that it is attracted deeper within the top layers of nail plate. I would avoid using this as a 'cruch' on clients... just use it if they seem to have constant pocket lifting problems and you are certain your mix and thickness are fine.

Hope this helps :revolve:
 

Christie's Nails

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I have heard of this technique before. I never would have imagined that this could help with pocket lifting...since I have been told again and again that I must get the perfect ratio of powder and liquid. Would this not TOTALLY goof up the ratio that I tried so hard to get perfect? Now there is more monomer than powder because of the extra monomer on the nail bed.
I do not think I totally understand the reason for putting the monomer on the nail bed. I mean, what is it actually going to do chemically?

You said "The monomer can help pre-coat the natural nail so that it is attracted deeper within the top layers of nail plate" Wouldn't it make sense that a wetter mix would do this too? You know...like wetter mayonaise on bread? Ok I am totally guessing here, I have no chemistry background what so ever. lol pulled the mayonaise thing from your old website.. ;)

What r yer thoughts?

I am now going to go watch the Superbowl and do my nails! :p
 

Your Nail Pro

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Christie's Nails said:
I have heard of this technique before. I never would have imagined that this could help with pocket lifting...since I have been told again and again that I must get the perfect ratio of powder and liquid. Would this not TOTALLY goof up the ratio that I tried so hard to get perfect? Now there is more monomer than powder because of the extra monomer on the nail bed.
I agree, how can this be helping with the pocket lifting when we are told it is from working too wet? This would mean you are adding monomer to the nail plate in addition to the already too wet ratio we are apparently using..........now I am totally baffled.

Leigh Ann
 

geeg

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Too WET a mix, causes the product to shrink when polymerizing.

A tiny touch of monomer on the plate at zone 2 ( and I mean a tiny touch) does not cause the product to shrink but attracts the product to the nail plate. It does not affect the mix ratio of the bead itself.

Can You see the difference?

I honestly think the pocket lifting is a mix ratio problem. I was in SanDiego with the geek last week and at the training, we watched the group from Russia make what Doug Schoon described as the perfect 'bead' time after time. What did it look like? Well, there was no powder around the bead, but the mix was definitely 'stiffer' than the rest of us were all making. But they seemed to still be able to 'work' with it for ages when sculpting.

One more point ... yucky monomer is a sure sign that one is working too wet. Something that is easy to do when one is in a hurry - which we often are in the salon! ;) Take a little more time to get this right every time ... we're only talking a few seconds per nail ... it won't affect your service time but will difinitely save time later. The enhancements will be stronger too.
 

The Geek

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oooohoohoo! Thought this might cause some confusion :revolve:!

This would mean you are adding monomer to the nail plate in addition to the already too wet ratio we are apparently using
I know what you guys are saying. But here is the thingee:

If you sure your mix isn't too wet, and the product isn't too thick... then the cause most likely isn't excessive shrinkage. So what could the problem be?

Some nail plates may be more dense than others... that may give the product a little more difficulty in anchoring to the plate (especially if your mix tends to go dry).

A slightly dampened surface will coat the 'nooks and cranies' of the surface of the plate much more effectively than a mix of l&p (once again... especially if its a dry mix)
Since in nature; like is attracted to like... your bead will be more attracted to those nooks and cranies previously mentioned.

In saying this... I still feel that it should really be applied in a last resort. As Gigi said... It is almost always associated with too wet of a mix and/or too much product. (see previous posts)

Hope this helps clear it up!.... ooo I love meaty topics!!
 

Christie's Nails

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whew that was a close one..almost lost faith in ya Geek. :) lol

Okay your explanation does make a little sense..very little..TOTALLY JOKING..lol *tear* lol lol for real I am kidding... :rofl:

I understand what you are saying. Especially if the bead is too dry....then this monomor on the nail bed would attract the rest to it.

So how about some primer?
 

The Geek

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So how about some primer?
Won't help unless the pocket lifting is assocoaited with an oily surface (that is... if you are using Retention+... otherwise you would be using a primer now wouldnt you :revolve:)

Have you tried Acid Free Primer? That helps with pocket lifting along the same lines as the plate wetting bit.

Toodles you sass-master :)
 

Peppercorn Nails

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Hey Mr Nail Geek

It's funny that you should mention problems with dense nails. I always seem to suffer pocket lifting on the same types of nails, namely dry, ridged, brittle and thick. There has always been that common denominator, so maybe it would be worthwhile giving your tip a wee go.

However, is there no chance of creating a reaction to this? If your client 5 years down the line has an allergic reaction, could this not be put down to you wiping pure monomer along the natural nail plate (however little)?

Sorry to question your judgement Mr Geek, but seeing as this is such a no no subject, surely you wouldn't be happy unless it was questioned :?:

Adele
 
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