Trial days in salons - paid or unpaid?

[Beautygirl1977]

I don't think there should be trial days. It should be interview, Trade test then probation period. If a potential employer did ask this of me i wouldn't want to work for them. Its so sad exploiting people like this who are desperate for a job.

I'm actually quite shocked at some of the comments on this thread.

Oh and I want to make a profit and spend it too! This isn't a hobby for me. It's my lively hood.

 

[BABSann]

Hi,

I've not stated in any of the above in anything I've said. It did not mean to read in a patronising manner. Our ideas of what we're looking for and how we run our business are clearly at opposite ends of the scale... I already have 4 of the excellent staff I was looking for using this system, they will be the benchmark for future ventures within the company when any expansion may occur. If the senior staff have done it, why shouldn't the junior or new staff do it??....

We ask our staff if there are any courses which they would like to go on or feel the need to go on. If there is good reason for it then we will send them on the course which is fully paid by the business and they are paid for the time out while on the course.

Thanks

Craig

Sorry, I'm not with you reference our ideas of what we are looking for and how we run our business being at opposite ends of the scale, in what way other than not agreeing on the fact that if a person works a day on paying clients that they should then be paid for their work? How have you come to this conclusion?

How long precisely have you been in the beauty industry? Have you a long established salon with good staff who you have kept for years on end and whom Your clients travel many miles to see and have you a long waiting list?

I don't know you and you don't know me. You could be a lovely boss to work for but you don't seem to take on board what experienced geeks have said,you just seem to come across as rather pig headed in your attitude that your way is the best way and that you have the best staff because they didn't expect to be paid for their trial days, purely based on the fact that they could see a good opportunity in working in your fantastic salon.

Has it not occurred to you that there are some extremely good therapists out there who quite frankly wouldn't allow themselves to work an entire day trying to impress a boss who tells them that though they will be working on paying clients they will not be being paid? Does it not bother you that you're getting something for nothing and why do you think it's ridiculous that we have made comments about your business making money from a therapist/ hairdresser who works all day on a paying client but whom you don't pay?

How can you not make money for that day? Unless of course you don't get anyone in for the therapist to trial on and if that's the case what's the point in having them in on a trial? Why not just get them to do a trades test then a 3 mth trial period as we have all mentioned.

Incidentally yes you did state those things I've mentioned. May I suggest you re read your posts written earlier. You stated that the people you are looking for are much more than just hairdressers or beauty therapists ( why because they accept your rules on working an entire day on paying clients without being paid themselves) that you want much more than someone who wants a few quid in their pocket. You then go on to say you want bright,ambitious people who basically will do anything to become successful individuals.

So reading your comments more closely, I would say you are saying any of us who wouldn't work for your company for a day without being paid are therefore not good enough because we aren't naive enough to do anything to become successful individuals.

Perhaps the case is that we have worked donkeys years in the industry, spent many hours and cash on training, gained heaps loads of experience and kept on top of all the latest trends so we feel we have done everything to become successful individuals.

Perhaps we see ourselves as already being successful individuals craig, maybe we are street wise and happy with our qualifications and experience and therefore have no wish to be exploited by someone who has just opened a salon. ( not that opening a salon is a bad thing of course, it's great and I'm pleased for you) but look at how many of us have commented on your remarks, surely we can't all be wrong?

If anything I would think a lot of experienced therapists would be slightly anxious about leaving a job in an established salon with a full appointment book, to go to a relatively new salon who are building up their client lists and reputation.

I'm glad you have four good therapists and I'm pleased you pay them on the days they go training. You are perfectly entitled to make your decisions in your business as we are in explaining our reasons for thinking its wrong to work all day on paying clients for nothing, whilst you pocket the money.

You have been asked why you think this is okay but you refrain from answering and I guess that's your prerogative really.

Good luck in your business and may you keep your staff for many years to come.

 

[classixuk]

I think Craig's being given a bit of a hard time to be honest, and in some instances by people who don't understand how it works (meaning running a business). For instance, one poster even suggested that he'd somehow get away with not paying taxes on the income he makes from the "trial day" as he hadn't paid the prospective employee? What the heck?

His system obviously has worked well for him, and also his staff of 4 who seem quite happy with their full time employment and career opportunities. It's going to be very hard to dissuade Craig from holding unpaid trial days if your posting history suggests that you don't even have a job yourself. How can someone who hasn't yet found their first job really state that Craig is doing it wrong? He's been employed, been successful, now has a business and provides employment to others. It's obvious to me that one party in that equation could teach the other some new ways of looking at things, but I don't think the student should be Craig. Sorry, but I'm just saying it as I see it.


Moving forward, in my business we have some steps for hiring and it goes like this:

1. The "short chat" - you come in and fill in an application form. We have a short chat afterwards (around 10 minutes). During this stage my team and I are assessing your appearance, the way you present yourself, whether your CV was written by yourself or a friend (hence us asking you to fill out a 4 page application form), whether you can read and understand instructions fully, why you are currently looking for employment and whether your experience matches what we have to offer and your general interests match those of our clients.

2. The "trade test" - If you're a junior this will be a half days unpaid trial. If you're a stylist this will be 3 haircuts on 3 different models - again, unpaid.

3. The "trial" - If you get to this stage we will invite you to attend the salon and work with the team for a busy day, say a Friday or a Saturday.

If you're a junior we're checking to see if you're lazy or not. You'll be buddied up with a head junior and you'll shadow them. They will give you tasks such as laundry cycle and station cleaning. In the afternoon we'll be checking to see if you can do these tasks on your own without prompting.
If everything's OK we will sit down at the end of the day and offer you a position. Should you take it up we will pay you for that trial day in your first wage packet.

If everything isn't OK and you're not working out the way we had hoped, we will let you go home before the day is out (usually lunchtime).

Stylists do a similar thing. We don't open up a column for them at all. Instead, they shadow the most senior stylist, who will offer them random work throughout the day, such as a hair-up, a blowdry, a gents cut. Never more than say 3 types of work. For the rest of the day we're watching how they treat the juniors, how they talk about themselves to clients etc. If everything works out we offer the position and pay for the day in their first wage.

Sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes we discover that the stylist was only good at the 3 models they brought in for their trade test. One example was a guy who had owned salons before and had years of experience on paper - full photographic portfolio to match. On his trial day he had the task of mirroring a hair-up (simple bun with bouffant) that a senior stylist was carrying out - he simply had to copy each stage that she was doing as she was doing it. Halfway through the service he told the 'client' - "This isn't going to work on you, you're bald at the front so I have no idea what we'll do on the day. Perhaps you'll need hair extensions?" He was VERY wrong. The senior stylist took over and completed the hair-up, showing him how it was done. He left his station in a real mess and actually clicked his fingers to summon a junior! Can you believe that? Now when stuff like that happens it makes me thankful I'm not paying for the experience to boot.

I see the trial day as an extension of the interview. If I paid everyone who requested an interview I'd be known as Santa Claus in our area. As it is, I pay for the trial day in the first wage packet and I'm comfortable with that.

 

[jacqueline]

Technical trade tests no.

Although saying that and it is a bit unusual, I have actually paid someone who did some trade tests on a client who had volunteered and she insisted the treatments were so good she wanted to pay, so I paid the therapist. I had supervised the whole process then had her do some work on me and just knew then she was the one for the position, I took her on without a trial day and she is still on my team now BTW. On her part she was thinking I want to work here, it a lovely atmosphere and the boss is decent!

Trial days yes, as I would only give these to people I feel are right for us and this would be after an interview and technical trade test too.

Ask yourself, why wouldn't you pay for a trial day if you are receiving full payment for treatments? If you had a regular therapist do it they would be paid so why pocket everything from someone elses work who is trialing for you?

I too wondered how long Craig has been in the business as I was reading through this and I am surprised after everything that happened recently at his salon that it wouldn't be a lesson learnt sort of scenario and see why those days should be paid. (No offence intended Craig just curious really).

On a slightly different note, I too agree with the guy above that mentioned others offering up when they have no experience. I understand we are all entitled to opinions of course but a lot of the business type questions are peppered with comments from non business owners. Please don't read that as elitist it isn't meant to be at all, I just think once someone has the overheads and experience with all aspects of running a business incl. staffing - the biggest issue for most - then their thoughts and ideas might change as it isn't as idealistic as we might all hope when we open our businesses.

 

[Lynne Baker]

I'd just like to add that I have two very successful businesses and employ 4 people. In my former life I was the IT programme manager for a global engineering consultancy company and I headed up a team of over 200 people. (I might mention that I hated it!)
When I employed staff we would take them on on a probationary period of 12 weeks, but it was far from unheard of to let people go after a much shorter period if they didn't shape up.
It was also far from uncommon for people to leave of their own volition during that time if they didn't like us, or they'd got a better offer.
Like I said; it works both ways.
Are there really people who come for a trial day and mooch about? Surely they would be working their arses off, wouldn't they?

 

[Lolly22]

I dont employ any staff but I know for one I would work for a trial day unpaid. This is what a trial period is for I thought? If you get them in and they are no use you can dismiss them that way.

If these therapists are made to work on paying clients I would like to ask the salon owners what happens with insurance? And what if a client asks for the person again for a treatment or asks why she's not seen that therapist again? And then you will say oh well she was on a trial day and she wasnt any good so we didn't employ her. How will the client feel after they have paid for a treatment? Also do you do a trade test or do you just let them loose on paying clients. So they say they can do a Brazilian and you just unleash them? I don't agree with this one bit and I wouldn't be happy if I were a client.

 

[andrea27]

I think Craig's being given a bit of a hard time to be honest, and in some instances by people who don't understand how it works (meaning running a business). For instance, one poster even suggested that he'd somehow get away with not paying taxes on the income he makes from the "trial day" as he hadn't paid the prospective employee? What the heck?

His system obviously has worked well for him, and also his staff of 4 who seem quite happy with their full time employment and career opportunities. It's going to be very hard to dissuade Craig from holding unpaid trial days if your posting history suggests that you don't even have a job yourself. How can someone who hasn't yet found their first job really state that Craig is doing it wrong? He's been employed, been successful, now has a business and provides employment to others. It's obvious to me that one party in that equation could teach the other some new ways of looking at things, but I don't think the student should be Craig. Sorry, but I'm just saying it as I see it.


Moving forward, in my business we have some steps for hiring and it goes like this:

1. The "short chat" - you come in and fill in an application form. We have a short chat afterwards (around 10 minutes). During this stage my team and I are assessing your appearance, the way you present yourself, whether your CV was written by yourself or a friend (hence us asking you to fill out a 4 page application form), whether you can read and understand instructions fully, why you are currently looking for employment and whether your experience matches what we have to offer and your general interests match those of our clients.

2. The "trade test" - If you're a junior this will be a half days unpaid trial. If you're a stylist this will be 3 haircuts on 3 different models - again, unpaid.

3. The "trial" - If you get to this stage we will invite you to attend the salon and work with the team for a busy day, say a Friday or a Saturday.

If you're a junior we're checking to see if you're lazy or not. You'll be buddied up with a head junior and you'll shadow them. They will give you tasks such as laundry cycle and station cleaning. In the afternoon we'll be checking to see if you can do these tasks on your own without prompting.
If everything's OK we will sit down at the end of the day and offer you a position. Should you take it up we will pay you for that trial day in your first wage packet.

If everything isn't OK and you're not working out the way we had hoped, we will let you go home before the day is out (usually lunchtime).

Stylists do a similar thing. We don't open up a column for them at all. Instead, they shadow the most senior stylist, who will offer them random work throughout the day, such as a hair-up, a blowdry, a gents cut. Never more than say 3 types of work. For the rest of the day we're watching how they treat the juniors, how they talk about themselves to clients etc. If everything works out we offer the position and pay for the day in their first wage.

Sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes we discover that the stylist was only good at the 3 models they brought in for their trade test. One example was a guy who had owned salons before and had years of experience on paper - full photographic portfolio to match. On his trial day he had the task of mirroring a hair-up (simple bun with bouffant) that a senior stylist was carrying out - he simply had to copy each stage that she was doing as she was doing it. Halfway through the service he told the 'client' - "This isn't going to work on you, you're bald at the front so I have no idea what we'll do on the day. Perhaps you'll need hair extensions?" He was VERY wrong. The senior stylist took over and completed the hair-up, showing him how it was done. He left his station in a real mess and actually clicked his fingers to summon a junior! Can you believe that? Now when stuff like that happens it makes me thankful I'm not paying for the experience to boot.

I see the trial day as an extension of the interview. If I paid everyone who requested an interview I'd be known as Santa Claus in our area. As it is, I pay for the trial day in the first wage packet and I'm comfortable with that.

I guess the beginning of your post was aimed at me. If you actually bothered to read the whole thread you would see that I wasn't having a go at Craig at all. A few people were and I completely agree with them.
I don't see what has me not having a job at the moment got to do with this at all???
Well, maybe I haven't got a job because I only been to dodgy interviews where they wanted me to work for free!

 

[user 52471]

I may not be a salon owner or have the responsibility of hiring staff. But if I ever got to the stage in my career where I have my own salon and take on staff I wouldn't have trial days, possibly would have a trade test, but if I liked them I would give them a fair chance and hire them on a probation period, I think that would be fairest

 

[classixuk]

I'd just like to add that I have two very successful businesses and employ 4 people. In my former life I was the IT programme manager for a global engineering consultancy company and I headed up a team of over 200 people. (I might mention that I hated it!)
When I employed staff we would take them on on a probationary period of 12 weeks, but it was far from unheard of to let people go after a much shorter period if they didn't shape up.
It was also far from uncommon for people to leave of their own volition during that time if they didn't like us, or they'd got a better offer.
Like I said; it works both ways.
Are there really people who come for a trial day and mooch about? Surely they would be working their arses off, wouldn't they?

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately though I have experienced first hand the moochers on the trial day. By 11AM we send them home relieved to be rid of them. Most people work out just fine though.

I can probably throw a cat amongst the pigeons here by mentioning that the best trials we've experienced have been the 8 week unpaid trials for the unemployed. I found 2 amazing members of staff through that when they approached me to see if I could offer them placements.

Makes half a day sound quite reasonable?

 

[classixuk]

I guess the beginning of your post was aimed at me. If you actually bothered to read the whole thread you would see that I wasn't having a go at Craig at all. A few people were and I completely agree with them.
I don't see what has me not having a job at the moment got to do with this at all???
Well, maybe I haven't got a job because I only been to dodgy interviews where they wanted me to work for free!

No no... not aimed at anyone. It's a long thread and I brought up the tax thing as one of the things that I had spotted which didn't make sense.

Sorry if you were offended, but I wasn't aiming it at you or any one person in particular.

I generally comment on posts rather than posters (because I don't know any of you and you're probably all lovely people) if that makes sense.

 

[andrea27]

No no... not aimed at anyone. It's a long thread and I brought up the tax thing as one of the things that I had spotted which didn't make sense.

Sorry if you were offended, but I wasn't aiming it at you or any one person in particular.

I generally comment on posts rather than posters (because I don't know any of you and you're probably all lovely people) if that makes sense.

Cool. I guess I was just really unlucky at my interviews - the last 3 wanted me to do this "trial day" for free. However I am sure there are lots of lovely salon owners who do things properly.

 

[Beautygirl1977]

You don't have to have a job to know right from wrong.
And again I can't believe some of the comments on this thread.

 

[Lynne Baker]

you're probably all lovely people

Apparently, I am a "monster, who has wilfully brought about the destruction of another human being's mental health, marriage and business"

I can do all that before breakfast so think on!

:lick:

(I hope to all things in the universe that I'm not like that; you'll be pleased to hear that there is not one scintilla of evidence that I have done any of those things, but still I have been accused of it)

 

[jcpark]

I can probably throw a cat amongst the pigeons here by mentioning that the best trials we've experienced have been the 8 week unpaid trials for the unemployed.

How could anyone live for 8 weeks if they were not being paid?

His system obviously has worked well for him

Philip Green obviously find it works well for him to pay himself a minimal wage and pay his wife in Switzerland the rest too. Doesn't make it morally right though.

Unfortunately, those young and naive and desperate will often do anything to get a job. The fashion industry is rife with unpaid interns. It is impossible to break into that industry unless you have well off parents who will support you and the rewards for those who make it (the few) are great, however, the beauty industry is not like that.

 

[classixuk]

Cool. I guess I was just really unlucky at my interviews - the last 3 wanted me to do this "trial day" for free. However I am sure there are lots of lovely salon owners who do things properly.

Just like haircuts - some salons do a professional job and others just make out that they know what they're doing.

Don't be put off if you've ran into a few cowboys (or cowgirls for that matter). There will always be people in business who really shouldn't be, but there are some really great places out there too with people who can help you.

Put it this way, would you rather do a free trial day at Ragdale Hall or refuse it in favour of a paid trial day at "Tracey's Tans"?

Apparently, I am a "monster, who has wilfully brought about the destruction of another human being's mental health, marriage and business"

I can do all that before breakfast so think on!

:lick:

(I hope to all things in the universe that I'm not like that; you'll be pleased to hear that there is not one scintilla of evidence that I have done any of those things, but still I have been accused of it)

This made me laugh! I shall be sure to avoid replying to your posts before 11AM then (should I wish to avoid a failed marriage, mental breakdown and total business failure) LOL.

I am wondering if those accusations were made on here? Think I might have to check your posting history in hope of some light entertainment!

How could anyone live for 8 weeks if they were not being paid?

They still get their JSA, housing benefit, council tax benefits etc., so I guess they are actually being paid.

The funniest thing was said to me by one of the girls I found through the scheme earlier this year. After we offered her a full time position she told me that she went to sign off at the job center, and there was a man outside with a placard protesting that the "work scheme doesn't work". He asked her to sign his petition and she told him that she couldn't possibly agree to sign it seeing as "the work scheme worked for her".

In her own words, she told me that she wondered why the man didn't just embrace the opportunity and see what happens rather than spending all of his time concentrating on negative things. I thought that was pretty grown up for a 19 year old.

 

[jcpark]

They still get their JSA, housing benefit, council tax benefits etc., so I guess they are actually being paid.

OK - but slightly different scenario though. They are still getting paid albeit by the taxpayer.

 

[Mobile Manicure]

Following on from a previous thread. I don't see why trial days should be paid. As I had explained in that thread, I as an owner wouldn't ask my staff to do anything I wouldn't do, and yes I have been to unpaid trial days in the hope of securing a position with a company/employer.

If a company/employer asked you to go along to an interview, would you asked to be paid for your time?.........

Craig

An interview? Since when did interviews last all day?

 

[classixuk]

put it this way, would you rather do a free trial day at ragdale hall or refuse it in favour of a paid trial day at "tracey's tans"?

sorry but i would have to choose tracey's tans.

lol!

 

[anca14]

As a senior therapist/salon owner there is no way I would do a day work in a salon for nothing and I dont know any good therapist who would accept this sort of trade test.

 

[Mobile Manicure]

As a senior therapist/salon owner there is no way I would do a day work in a salon for nothing and I dont know any good therapist who would accept this sort of trade test.

I think the reason you don't know any is probably because there aren't any. A good therapist would know their own worth and not be exploited. It should be illegal.

I'm sorry Craig, you are so in the minority. How long exactly did you say you've been in the beauty business and what are your beauty qualifications? I don't think you'd know a good therapist if you fell over one.