Dennis Williams selling Solar Oil, Scrub Fresh, Additives and Nourishing Remover

[The Geek]

I personally don't see that the "cheap salon" analogy is correct.

We are not talking about NSS, we are not talking about untrained techs or unsanitary salons, we are not talking about salons who use cheap products, we are not talking about the DIY mob.

Try the analogy again (partly quoted below for reference)

Many of you know what it is like to have a high volume, budget salon open up down the road from you, trying to undercut your services and take your customers. You may find it hard with some customers to explain the challenges and costs that are factored into your pricing. You invest in your education, hygiene, and advertising while they may not.

Our situation has some similarities. We invest A LOT into education, marketing, advertising, brand building, consumer pr, events, trade shows, etc... Of course it's easy to undercut us when you can buy from suspect sources and not spend a penny investing into any of the program's we do building the brand and supporting the industry. Just like a lot of your customers could save a fortune by going to a budget salon that doesn't invest in the same things you do.

The analogy is about comparing cost structures which leave you open to less scrupulous competitors taking advantage of you to make money trying to take your customers you invested into creating.

Well said- I wanted to post words to this affect but kept chickening out! I totally agree though.

I suppose only time will tell....

The shows are supposed to only allow professionals in. If we weren't committed to selling to pros only, there are many better ways to bypass them. We don't.

I shudder to imagine the shows where we had 3.5 hour queues if we were also requiring people to bring their certificates.

 

[littlemiss-32]

If you are commenting on my post then I think you need to read it again. I'm not disagreeing about healthy competition in prices and, more importantly, choices. I am pointing out the differences that sellers provide to their customers.

If this industry was populated by "trained, qualified and insured techs" there would be no problem at all. But it isn't.

I agree with you about the change. Something has radically changed and I wonder what it is![/QUOTE

But how can there be any 'healthy competition' or 'choice' if S2 are in fact the ONLY company allowed to distribute in the UK??
Not trying to be argumentative because when I used shellac S2 were a very helpful, reliable company to buy from and train with, the product unfortunately didn't work out for my particular client base.
However ive heard the phrase "dont mind healthy competition" a couple of times now, but that just seems like a throw away comment really because there can't be any healthy competition OR choice if you are a Shellac user in the UK??

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[The Geek]

It's an exclusivity brand distribution model which is how the vast majority of brands (in and out of the industry) operate internationally.

We have mutual exclusivity whereby we focus all of our efforts and resources into making the brand a success. Without that model... Who would do shows? Ads? Education? Local market pr? The manufacturer would, but at a higher cost as you would need to duplicate in each market. This would result in.... Higher costs!

So it's a model employed by almost all within the industry (with some exceptions like L'Oreal) because it ensures the distributor has "skin in the game" and encourages maximum sales (which excessive pricing discourages) in exchange for the investment.

 

[DuyguKasapoglu]

It's an exclusivity brand distribution model which is how the vast majority of brands (in and out of the industry) operate internationally.

We have mutual exclusivity whereby we focus all of our efforts and resources into making the brand a success. Without that model... Who would do shows? Ads? Education? Local market pr? The manufacturer would, but at a higher cost as you would need to duplicate in each market. This would result in.... Higher costs!

So it's a model employed by almost all within the industry (with some exceptions like L'Oreal) because it ensures the distributor has "skin in the game" and encourages maximum sales (which excessive pricing discourages) in exchange for the investment.

Hi, you said in one of your posts that purchasing from DW would only allow a nail tech to save 20p a treatment, yet then you go on to say that DW is basically allowing other salons to open up and offer the same product cheaper? Isn't that a contradiction?

You also say that the diversion is causing a massive problem in the UK - but for who? Shellac is available everywhere and anywhere in the states, and the brand is doing perfectly fine without one supplier having a monopoly on CND. It's only causing a problem for YOU because diversion is taking money out of your pockets.

 

[mum]

Of course healthy competition is good! I have spent the majority of my career being independent (from choice). But, I do know how this industry works.

To be an 'exclusive distributor' takes a lot of money and time. Yes, it prevents 'healthy competition' but one would hope that, if the 'exclusive distributor' wasn't representing the brand in its best light, the manufacture would question the 'exclusivity'.

The situation at the moment (for several brands) is that someone somewhere is 'diverting' products and breaking legal agreements. I have no idea if these are old stock but many of them are genuine, many are not!

In this thread we are talking about CND and S2. Both Samuel Sweet and Jim Nordstrom have entered into this thread.

I likened the buying experience to John Lewis. You get complete knowledge and support from them OR you go to another store (no names) and get no assistance whatsoever.

If the tide is changing then take your choices. Get the full customer support and confidence that the manufacturer is behind their distributor OR buy for a few pence less and know that there is no manufacturer support no education support and, often, questionable proof of 'pro' vs public

The choice is there. Take it or leave it.

The other company that is the subject of this thread is Dennis Williams. I have no axe to grind with them except they are buying 'diverted' products and have no support from the manufacturer. Nor do they have an education program in place for their customers nor staff training. They have also not provided the 'full system' for their customers. Does everyones insurance support lack of 'system' products and lack of manufacturers qualifications? Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't!

It's an open market and pros can take their choices. If you choose to buy from unauthorised sellers then don't moan about the cut price salons down the road. Like any business it's cutthroat and you take your chances!

Your choice.

Devils advocate!

 

[libbylou]

Ultimately people will buy where they wont to, BUT it is good to have that choice. I am in business to make money and i always source the most competitive prices. I have no loyalty to any wholesaler. It makes no business sense to me to buy the exact same product from company a , when company b sells it a lot cheaper. I am in no way knocking sweet squared , they are in business to make money and nothing else, so am i.

 

[mum]

A lot cheaper?? Really??

How much does that relate to per service?

No manufacturer support. No training support. Insurance?? No authentic qualifications. Selling to 'pros' (perhaps) but with no brand education.

I am all for the 'open market' but this industry is getting 'dumbed down' enough!

The tide is turning but, please, get real! There are enough issues to deal with without losing the professional approach!

 

[profbeau]

Have I missed the point completely?

Dw shellac is exactly the same price as s2. There is no money to be saved by shopping with dw. However, you do loose the support and salon locator of s2.

 

[Flickaroo]

A lot cheaper?? Really??

How much does that relate to per service?

No manufacturer support. No training support. Insurance?? No authentic qualifications. Selling to 'pros' (perhaps) but with no brand education.

I am all for the 'open market' but this industry is getting 'dumbed down' enough!

The tide is turning but, please, get real! There are enough issues to deal with without losing the professional approach!

I have a massive order of shellac to make and I added them all to my basket from each supplier in question.
One was almost £200 less than the other ....... For a small business that's a massive saving. So yes I agree it is a lot cheaper.

 

[Flickaroo]

Have I missed the point completely?

Dw shellac is exactly the same price as s2. There is no money to be saved by shopping with dw. However, you do loose the support and salon locator of s2.

They have 20% off today and tomorrow, then after that their shellac is buy 5 get one free. That offer is until at least the end of August

 

[mum]

Massive saving! I believe you.

Cost per service?? What is it?

Is that worth lack of education? Lack of support? No insurance support?

Does anyone really do their COP out there?

Or do they just look at the current invoice? Break it down and look at business models!

 

[libbylou]

Any one with a basic manicure qualification can buy shellac from sweetsquared. As for training i always pay a premium price for all our staff, but that does not mean i have to buy my products from them.

 

[Flickaroo]

Massive saving! I believe you.

Cost per service?? What is it?

Is that worth lack of education? Lack of support? No insurance support?

Does anyone really do their COP out there?

Or do they just look at the current invoice? Break it down and look at business models!

I see what your saying, for me personally (maybe others are the same) but I don't think I have called s2 once in the 3 years I've been registered with them. It's great that they are there if you need them, but so is the internet and helpful forums like this. Also not interested in the current courses they offer (no offence) maybe because I'm not completely nails focused (beauty salon not just nails).
I guess my point is that surely, you must see, that for those people who don't need the education or support, are going to choose their supplier based on price?

Does anyone know how long DW has even been selling Shellac? Is this relatively new?

 

[Whitesands]

I went with shellac as my nail product as it wasnt available everywhere - since now being easily available at dennis williams i've lost so many nail customers - they been honest and said they don't get a finish as neat as mine but its so much cheaper for them so if i disnt mind they'd be doing it themselves from now on. As its also allowed many more people to get hold of it (dennis williams practically will let anyone buy it, i rang up and asked for some advice on shellac to see what they would say and was shocked at what i got told!)...back on my point...it means that there's more price wars starting shellac for £10 - its a joke these companies should protect their customers - THE REAL THERAPISTS - and keep it a professional product!!!! - gutted xx

 

[hazeleyes]

I see this from all angles...I'm sure it doesn't really save is much per service but I think this is a sign of the times- it's competitive, people will eventually always seek out a bargain.

I think part of what contributes to this is it's a novelty for us at the moment when it comes to shellac! Since 2010(?) we have only been able to buy shellac from s2 with no (or very little) deals, discounts or bargains! We have (largely) been loyal, we haven't doubted it, we have trained and we have spent heavily with them! We have bought into and believed the hype and the need to buy genuine products from our one and only exclusive uk supplier. But after quite a few years of this it's somewhat refreshing to be able to purchase genuine (albeit maybe older) shellac at a discount. I know many many people who were disappointed at the last show to be offered nothing in the way of deals on shellac. We all eagerly went along hoping for something... But nothing, not a crumb!

People grow tired and I think spirits rise when a more attractive deal is on the table. They will forgoe the great customer service or have already done all the training (like the lady who has already trained) s2 offer.
It's pretty hard to ignore when other companies are literally waving a better offer under our noses!

Yes the unqualified joe blogs down the road may steal my custom but if they are delivering an entirely equal service to mine for slightly cheaper then I suppose I can't blame the customers! It's annoying for me yes... But expected! I constantly fight to keep my prices competitive because of this. But s2 it seems have taken the decision not to do this.

 

[nicole333]

This is really interesting to read and I also take on board everyone's points and contribution, it's good to get these things out in the open and be able to discuss it like adults.

Although I can see it from all angles too, I cannot get it out of my head that the Academies that have now gone independent would risk our custom by importing stock that they do not have confidence in.

A seed has been sown now (some may take it as scare mongering) that DW may be selling old stock or recalled products, although wouldn't recalls go back to CND? But, the Academies are no more authorised now than DW and I just can't believe they would do this. Therefore I'm left thinking that it must be very easy to import or divert genuine CND Shellac rather than just old or faulty batches.

 

[DuyguKasapoglu]

DW is actually selling CND with the new packaging, which came out very recently..

 

[jordynncarey]

I went with shellac as my nail product as it wasnt available everywhere - since now being easily available at dennis williams i've lost so many nail customers - they been honest and said they don't get a finish as neat as mine but its so much cheaper for them so if i disnt mind they'd be doing it themselves from now on. As its also allowed many more people to get hold of it (dennis williams practically will let anyone buy it, i rang up and asked for some advice on shellac to see what they would say and was shocked at what i got told!)...back on my point...it means that there's more price wars starting shellac for £10 - its a joke these companies should protect their customers - THE REAL THERAPISTS - and keep it a professional product!!!! - gutted xx

You've lost so many customers because of Dennis Williams, really? They've only just started selling it, most people who have ordered from them are probably still waiting for it to arrive.....
To be honest I don't see what the big deal is, the more places available to purchase the more the company's are gonna have to compete for everyone's business, the better it is for us the consumers. Not been funny but anyone who would choose to pay more for the same thing are idiots, why would people worry about putting more money into sweet squared pockets with all the millions they have. If they want our business then they are gonna have to compete for it. Exclusivity just leaves us with no other options but to pay out the nose for something, and oh "all the support you get from s2" has anyone ever had to phone for support? If you know how to apply shellac properly you should never have to..
I don't think it's going to have any effect on diyers either, there's plenty of other places to buy shellac from, including the easiest ebay and amazon, people always go on about you don't know what your getting it could be fake.. If you get one labeled CND and not bluesky or CCO etc then your pretty much 99% of the time are getting the real deal. What puts diyers off is the whole cost of the system having to buy the top, base coat, the lamp, stuff for prep, isopropyl alcohol and then your colours, and don't justify the whole cost of it just to do them selves and maybe a couple of friends.

No offence to anyone! Everyone's allowed an opinion

 

[Lilypie]

You've lost so many customers because of Dennis Williams, really? They've only just started selling it, most people who have ordered from them are probably still waiting for it to arrive.....
To be honest I don't see what the big deal is, the more places available to purchase the more the company's are gonna have to compete for everyone's business, the better it is for us the consumers. Not been funny but anyone who would choose to pay more for the same thing are idiots, why would people worry about putting more money into sweet squared pockets with all the millions they have. If they want our business then they are gonna have to compete for it. Exclusivity just leaves us with no other options but to pay out the nose for something, and oh "all the support you get from s2" has anyone ever had to phone for support? If you know how to apply shellac properly you should never have to..
I don't think it's going to have any effect on diyers either, there's plenty of other places to buy shellac from, including the easiest ebay and amazon, people always go on about you don't know what your getting it could be fake.. If you get one labeled CND and not bluesky or CCO etc then your pretty much 99% of the time are getting the real deal. What puts diyers off is the whole cost of the system having to buy the top, base coat, the lamp, stuff for prep, isopropyl alcohol and then your colours, and don't justify the whole cost of it just to do them selves and maybe a couple of friends.

No offence to anyone! Everyone's allowed an opinion

Well I choose to buy from S2 only and that doesn't make me an idiot. This is my business and I don't want to compromise on the products I use. I need to be assured the products I use are legit and fit for purpose for both my clients and my reputation. Not to mention insurance.

I have had to call S2 for support. Not necessarily for application issues but I once had a dodgy shellac brush and a scrubfresh with no lid. One quick call and it was sorted. Can't imagine getting it sorted that quick via amazon or ebay. I don't have the time to wait for days for a generic email response therefore I am happy to pay for this service by way of buying at full price.

On to amazon and ebay. Just because the bottle says CND, doesn't mean that is what is in there. Bluesky used to say Shellac on the bottle but it wasn't Shellac in there.

DW have been selling it for a while now.

Yes we each have a right to our own opinions but to call people idiots and make a few sweeping statements probably isn't the best way to air yours!

This thread is clearly split down the middle and it seems there's no immediate solution

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[carebears86]

After reading through the entire thread, and a lot of people raving about the "support" they have received from S2... but from my own personal experience of dealing with S2 I have never found them helpful.

I trained with them once back in October 2013 and ever since I have wanted to continue my training. However EVERY time I have called to enquire about future training dates, I have been told to call back once they have new dates for training... Fast forward 9months and I have only recently finally been given dates of training. Waiting 9months is totally unacceptable especially since other academies such as the Manchester academy have regular training dates.

The customer service staff have never called or emailed me back as promised (several times) and have really not been very useful what so ever.

So I can't see why people are raving about there service to the pro.

I have even considered alternative training with companies I would rather not train with, just so I can learn.

I really don't call that "Love + Respect" from a company I have heavily invested in and stayed loyal to. :-(