Insurance question re waxing!

[Kim Lawless]

At the beginning of this thread Kim said that The Guild do insure her courses and that is what started the confusion.

No confusion Sheila. They do insure my courses when it suits them. FACT! I've had many students actually check with The Guild first and send my certificates in and they've been insured by them and still are.

Anyway! I think they've been given enough air time and I've got a party to get ready for.

The moral of this thread is that if you want the freedom to do whatever courses you like and with whoever you like, choose an insurer that doesn't limit you.

You're a trainer Sheila and I'm sure that you're standards are super high as is your reputation. I don't know who your courses are accredited by but you wait and see how you feel when Joanna Bloggs wants to book onto your course but her insurance company won't insure her because she has to do a waxing course accredited by them only. Whatever way you wrap it up, it's a smack in the face.

Maybe it's just personal against me although like I said, I have no axe to grind with them at all.

PLEASE REMEMBER GUYS! It's the trainer that chooses who they have their courses accredited by and not the other way round. It's not a badge of honour. We have to pay hundreds of pounds. Would you get your car insured by every insurance company or just one?

 

[angelina221]

I get it now. Problems can arise too if you want to get your courses accredited. I know when I asked the Guild to send me their accreditation pack, I came across a problem.
I have trained in basic waxing, intimate female waxing and intimate male waxing. Now I would be able to get my courses accredited for basic waxing and female waxing. However, I did my intimate male waxing course with Kim and because they won't insure her courses they also wont accredit me for that course. So even though I've done an accredited course, I have a teaching qualification and I've been doing male intimate waxing for nearly 5 years, they won't accredit it. So it wouldn't make sense for me to have some course accredited with one company and then have to go with another company to just accredit one course. I would either have to go with another company who accredits all the courses or I would have to train again in intimate male waxing with someone accredited by the Guild!
Also, I think it's very hard for insurance companies to know whether a course is good or not. I did my basic waxing course with someone who was accredited by the Guild. I was there for less than 2 hours!! I then had to go away and do 40 hours of practical. I was then supposed to go back and show that I was competent. By the time I had done my 40 hours, the company were no longer at the place I had trained at so she got me to drop my course notes at her house. She asked if I felt confident, I said I did and so she passed me. Now on paper this course may sound good because you need to do so may hours practical but it was dire and yet it was still accredited. Go figure!

 

[fozzyo]

This whole thing goes to show that there is no universally recognised standard for our industry. And that is a problem.

There is no legal requirement to do any training in the UK to practice.

For most States in the USA to offer become certified and registered with the State as a Massage Therapist you need to complete 500 hours of recognised training as a minimum! Up in British Columbia it's 3,000 hours!

Here it's zero hours. You see the difference? We don't have to do any training! To get insurance you can probably find someone who would cover you after a four or six hour course. Will you really have enough of an understanding of A&P to massage?

It is the responsibility of each individual therapist to contact their insurer and ask for written confirmation that a training course they are about to book on will be covered by that therapists policy, and any restrictions that may apply. I've had two insurance policies to ensure I am covered.

And we are talking about policies that costs less then £100 a year. If that is what we need to do to ensure all aspects of our businesses are covered is that really a bad thing?

Why should we expect one policy to cover everything? If you have one policy to cover your Guild accreditted courses, and one to cover your BABTAC accreditted courses why is that such a problem? In the event of any claim you know that the insurance provider 100% recognises the training, your ability to safely carry out the treatment and is happy to provide cover. If they do not, lets face it insurers never like to pay out if they can help it, you are giving them an excuse to say they won't cover you. Is that worth the risk?

 

[Kim Lawless]

There is no legal requirement to do any training in the UK to practice.
True..........but you wouldn't be able to get insured so any decent, intelligent person with a brain would have training. Same as someone driving without a licence. Plenty do it but if they get caught they're not insured.

For most States in the USA to offer become certified and registered with the State as a Massage Therapist you need to complete 500 hours of recognised training as a minimum! Up in British Columbia it's 3,000 hours!
So what! This is the UK and anyway..........they get sued left right an centre there, so all the training doesn't seem to make them any better therapists.

Here it's zero hours. You see the difference? We don't have to do any training! How long are your courses then? I thought you offered one day training.

And we are talking about policies that costs less then £100 a year. If that is what we need to do to ensure all aspects of our businesses are covered is that really a bad thing?
Nobody is disputing that they need insuring. Think you're a little confused.


Why should we expect one policy to cover everything? If you have one policy to cover your Guild accreditted courses, and one to cover your BABTAC accreditted courses why is that such a problem?
Are your courses accredited by EVERY insurer then Matt because that's what you're saying. There are more than just The Guild and BABTAC so who else do you have your courses accredited by?

I'm going to be checking out lots of different courses this week, tanning, nails, etc etc and I'm going to see how many of them are accredited by more than one or two organisations. I don't think they'll be many and why should they.

There are countless courses in the UK that are appalling, yet they are all accredited, so you tell me how that makes sense.

The Guild are implying that they WON'T insure my courses rather than making it clear that I've not invited them to accredit my courses. Let me make that very clear!!!!!!!!

Seriously! Love me or hate me but I've worked my arse off to get where I am today without favours, free accreditations or hand ups, so if anyone tries to imply that I can't get my courses accredited, I'll be on it like a rat up a drain pipe.

Fuming of Essex!

 

[fozzyo]

I work for several different training providers and companies around the country as a freelance trainer teaching *their* courses, so I don't get involved in any accreditation decisions.

In regards length of training courses I am talking about the *legal* requirement, not moral.

I am not saying training providers need to have their courses accredited by everyone. Rather, that as a therapist if I need to have more then one insurance policy to ensure I am 100% fully covered for all treatments I offer then I will do that. The industry has developed in such a way that people expect one policy to cover all aspects of their business, unfortunately this may or may not be the case.

 

[shedunlop]

I still really don't see the problem. We are all in business and it is our duty to make sure that we are insured properly. This should be done before we take on any extra courses and if the course we wish to do is not covered by our existing insurance then we need to make a decision. Either choose someone who does the course and is approved by our own insurers or take out further insurance if we feel so strongly.

As I said before Kim, if I felt that I was having any problems with my courses not being taken up because of insurance then I would pay the extra myself and have my courses accredited by another insurer, many trainers do, that way our students are not caught out.

It all goes back to what has been discussed on here many times before. DO YOUR RESEARCH! Research your courses, trainers and see their qualifications and accreditation proof beforehand, know who they are accredited by and make sure that this fits in with any existing insurances you might have. We are not a properly regulated industry and there are many trainers out there who aren't even qualified in either the subject or teaching. Many people on here have found this out too late.

We all choose our insurers for various reasons, some because they are the cheapest and some because of the benefits, magazines etc and some because they are the leading companies. Trainers choose the company they want to be accredited by but then need to make sure their students know who they can gain insurance from once they qualify, it is our duty to know and to pass it on to potential students.

Angelina, did you report the training company you did your basic with to The Guild? I know they have struck off several trainers who have not kept up the standards they have agreed to and they actively encourage complaints to go to them regarding any trainer who is accredited by them. If I was you I would get going with your own training and get your accreditation through Babtac for your waxing. It would be lovely to see you out there in the training world having studied so hard for your qualifications my darling x

 

[The Guild]

Hi Geeks,

Once again, we feel we need to provide further clarification on this issue.

For the avoidance of any doubt, courses run by Kim Lawless are not accredited by the Guild and we will not provide insurance cover for them.

Kim has been invited to submit her courses for accreditation on several occasions but has chosen not to do so. That is entirely her decision which we fully respect. This does not imply and should not be interpreted as criticism of her training or courses in any way, but without accrediting a course we can not verify it covers our requirements for membership and insurance.

There are no personal issues involved.

Kim has been advised on several occasions in private correspondence with the Guild that her courses are not accredited and therefore can not be covered. We have also clearly stated our position publicly on this forum. Despite this, Kim continues to claim that students who take her courses will be able to get insurance from the Guild. Furthermore, there is a claim on Kim’s website which states that her courses are “…recognised in their own right by all insurers.” Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 goods must be as described. Kim’s insistence that her courses can be covered by the Guild when we have stated categorically that they can not is therefore a breach of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

Kim states that her decision not to submit her courses for accreditation is a commercial one stating “..it would cost thousands by the time you had finished paying them all and their annual fees.” Once again, we respect her views, but we feel we need to put the record straight on this. The cost of accrediting up to three courses with the Guild is £395 + VAT. Schools and courses are then reviewed annually and pay a renewal fee of £295 + VAT per year. Considering the time it takes us to accredit each school and each course, we do not believe this is excessive. Furthermore, all accredited schools are advertised on the Beautyguild.com website and in each issue of Guild Gazette magazine. Training schools set their own course costs and these vary, but if you assume that the typical cost a day’s training is in the region of £250, schools usually recoup the cost of accreditation very quickly. As has become clear from this thread, Guild accreditation is accepted by other insurance companies, which means that students will often specifically seek out Guild accredited courses resulting in more course bookings for the accredited schools. The fact that the majority of beauty training schools in the UK choose to accredit with the Guild is testament to the commercial value of this process.

Why do we only insure courses that have been accredited by the Guild? It is simply a matter of setting high standards. We firmly believe that we have a responsibility to our members to verify ourselves that the courses we provide insurance for meet nationally agreed minimum standards. People are free to criticise our processes, but they have served us well for almost 20 years and we will not be bullied into changing them just to accommodate any individual. If other insurance providers choose to accept courses that they have not accredited themselves, that is up to them. Once again, there is no implied criticism of other trade bodies or insurance providers intended here.

The Guild’s accreditation process is robust and completely transparent, insofar that all training schools and courses are listed in the Training Directory on Beautyguild.com. We also publish a list of all accredited schools in each issue of Guild Gazette magazine so that our members can see which schools are local to them. All enquiries that we receive regarding training courses from members and non-members, (and there are at least 50 every day) we refer to the Training Directory. Not surprisingly, the Training Directory is one of the busiest areas on the site and last month alone was searched 198,635 times. It’s very simple - if a school and course is listed on the Training Directory, we can insure it providing the applicant meets all our other standard criteria. There are no “blacklists” either published or unpublished.

One of the other advantages of Guild accreditation is that we have a clear complaints procedure. Students can refer any complaints regarding the quality of training to the Guild and the accredited schools are required to provide a response. We can, and have, withdrawn our accreditation from schools that fail to provide adequate standards of training or which do not comply with our insurance requirements. If a Guild accredited school was known to be in breach of any regulations such as the Sale of Goods Act, and refused to change their advertising, we would have no hesitation in withdrawing accreditation and referring the issue to Trading Standards who investigate illegal sales activity.

The Guild would not normally comment about individual training schools and courses on a public forum, but when false and misleading claims regarding our insurance are made, we feel we must put the record straight. We will not comment on individual membership cases as these are confidential. We will also not comment on the processes employed by other insurance providers – we will leave them to answer their own queries. Clearly, this thread has attracted a lot of interest and if anyone has any questions regarding their insurance, they should talk directly to their insurance provider and not rely on the opinions from any third parties which, as we have seen quite clearly on this thread, are not reliable.

Finally, we respect the fact that Kim has a number of loyal followers and wish her well in her business.

 

[Kim Lawless]

Hi Geeks,

Once again, we feel we need to provide further clarification on this issue.

For the avoidance of any doubt, courses run by Kim Lawless are not accredited by the Guild and we will not provide insurance cover for them.
Yes and I want to clarify that they are not accredited by The Guild because I have chosen not to have them accredited by The Guild. My decision not to do so is based not on anything other than the cost involved if I had them accredited by every insurer. Nothing personal to your company whatsoever!


There are no personal issues involved.
That's great because I was beginning to think that. I remember years ago The Guild, totally off your own back promoting my courses on your site and making me banner ads as a gift.......which I never asked for. I thought it was a very generous and kind thing to do, so me being me, I printed your details and promoted you in my manual under the Insurance section recommending you to students. One good turn deserves another. However, it all went downhill after I received a phone call from one of your directors, which funnily enough I still have backed up on my computer as it somehow recorded on voicemail (blooming iPhones). We had a lovely conversation about how you'd love to accredit my courses and it was only when I politely declined because of the costs involved if I had to have them accredited by every company and because I didn't feel the need to, that you turned negative towards me.

Kim has been advised on several occasions in private correspondence with the Guild that her courses are not accredited and therefore can not be covered. We have also clearly stated our position publicly on this forum. Despite this, Kim continues to claim that students who take her courses will be able to get insurance from the Guild.

Oh but they can and do! I've had many email since this thread started from students telling me that they told you clearly that they hadn't done any previous Brazilian training and that they've sent in my certificates and you've taken their money and insured them. They are now worried that they're not insured. They're not accredited by you because I've not ask you to. Don't make it sound as though I applied and you refused.

Furthermore, there is a claim on Kim’s website which states that her courses are “…recognised in their own right by all insurers.” Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 goods must be as described. Kim’s insistence that her courses can be covered by the Guild when we have stated categorically that they can not is therefore a breach of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.
That's been put there because of the fact that you do insure some of my students but I'll remove it and make it quite clear who they should get insured with. I can prove everything I've said so no Sale of Goods Act 1979 breached. That's be altered now........was just trying to put business your way but that's fine. Your loss, not mine..

Kim states that her decision not to submit her courses for accreditation is a commercial one stating “..it would cost thousands by the time you had finished paying them all and their annual fees.” Once again, we respect her views, but we feel we need to put the record straight on this. The cost of accrediting up to three courses with the Guild is £395 + VAT. Schools and courses are then reviewed annually and pay a renewal fee of £295 + VAT per year.
Yes, but if you times that by EVERY accrediting body out there, that comes to thousands. Are you saying that your accreditation procedure is of a higher standard than all of the others and should therefore be the only one to go with?

Why do we only insure courses that have been accredited by the Guild? It is simply a matter of setting high standards.
So are you saying that your standards are higher than BABTAC etc?


Finally, we respect the fact that Kim has a number of loyal followers and wish her well in her business.

And I wish you well too but I feel like this is becoming a witch hunt on your part and I'm really offended and upset by all of this.

 

[Kim Lawless]

Do the Guild ask to see copies of your certificates then? I think if companies did this then at least you would know.
I think I will do what Baggybear suggests because no insurance company has ever asked for me to send them copies of my certificates!

Yes, they all should ask for copies of certs and I thought they did. The Guild do and Babtac do but not sure about anyone else.

 

[Baggybear]

Not all insurance providers ask to see your certificates when taking out a policy with them but ALL insurance companies will ask for your relevant certs if you need to make a claim (Salon Gold is one company that works this way).

I don't think it is a worry to use one of the insurance companies who don't want to see your certificates before covering you (I am with Salon Gold) as my boyfriend used to be an insurance broker and I know their policy gives me the protection & cover I need & I have emailed scans of any certificates I was unsure of and asked them if the certs allow me to offer the treatments listed.
I have the replies saved so I can print & produce them if I ever need to.

You can always email them your certs & ask would all these certs be accepted & covered if I take out your xyz policy? before actually getting a policy with them - this would be the same as showing your certs when taking the policy out.

One question I asked Salon Gold was "am I covered on my policy to do hollywood/brazilian waxing with my basic waxing cert (attached)" & they said no. So after passing Kim's course I emailed the new cert and ensured I was covered by it to now do hollywood/brazillian waxing.

It is my responsibility to only perform treatments I am qualified & insured to do & it is my responsibility to ensure the courses I choose to attend are accredited & will be covered by my insurance policy & if they won't be covered I have to choose to either do another course or get another insurance policy. Salon Gold cover all the accredited courses I have done (from several different training places accredited by different people).

 

[NailsXpress]

ABT always ask to see your certificates. Until you produce them, and until they clarify they are acceptable, you are not covered.

 

[shedunlop]

I think one of the other, and possibly the most important thing for the therapist, is, which insurance companies handle claims the best. After all that is what the insurance is for!

We often see threads on here about which company to go with but very little from therapists who have ever had the misfortune of making a claim or someone making a claim against them and how it was handled.

I think by informing ourselves properly and making informed choices rather than emotional or financial ones, we should be protecting ourselves properly against any claims that are made against us. There can be nothing worse than then having to find you are not covered or having to deal with the whole thing yourself with no legal guidance or backup.

 

[Jack Dunn]

I think one of the other, and possibly the most important thing for the therapist, is, which insurance companies handle claims the best. After all that is what the insurance is for!


Sheila totally agree with that. Top of my list today to find a new insurance company and I am doing all the research into what's included with each of them. So much for my day off!!

Thanks

 

[tjmadmum]

I think one of the other, and possibly the most important thing for the therapist, is, which insurance companies handle claims the best. After all that is what the insurance is for!


Sheila totally agree with that. Top of my list today to find a new insurance company and I am doing all the research into what's included with each of them. So much for my day off!!

Thanks

Me too! Just a bit hacked off as I only took my insurance out with the guild 3 months ago and I was told I would be covered! As a new start up I can't afford to lose that much money (mine has add ins due to offering microdermabrasion) 😞 x

 

[mm29]

I think there is only one company out of all of this looking poor and it's sure as hell not Kim's,

If the guild has been mis leading to potential customers telling them Kim's course will be covered I think anyone who has been told this should call in with their phone number they used to make the call and ask for their phone call to be pulled. (Listened back) and kick up hell, poor bloody therapists trying to do the right thing by phoning a well known company and being lied to so now working with no insurance!

That's wrong on so many levels and not the best advertisement for the company on a public forum

 

[shedunlop]

I think there is only one company out of all of this looking poor and it's sure as hell not Kim's,

If the guild has been mis leading to potential customers telling them Kim's course will be covered I think anyone who has been told this should call in with their phone number they used to make the call and ask for their phone call to be pulled. (Listened back) and kick up hell, poor bloody therapists trying to do the right thing by phoning a well known company and being lied to so now working with no insurance!

That's wrong on so many levels and not the best advertisement for the company on a public forum

I don't think The Guild are so much at fault to be honest with you. Kim has admitted that she had told students that The Guild would insure them, it was on her own website and has now been removed, Kim said so yesterday.

I know when I put my certs through with The Guild one was rejected as it was not accredited by them so I can't see any reason other than human error that this has happened. As stated yesterday, The Guild cannot comment on individual cases and it is up to the therapists to sort it out directly with them. As far as I know The Guild has only ever insured courses accredited by them and they have said so on more than one occasion on this very site.

Hopefully all of this will help everyone in future to do their homework, make sure that the information they are being given is the correct information from both their trainer and their insurance company and get it in writing that they are covered!

 

[mm29]

I don't think The Guild are so much at fault to be honest with you. Kim has admitted that she had told students that The Guild would insure them, it was on her own website and has now been removed, Kim said so yesterday.

I know when I put my certs through with The Guild one was rejected as it was not accredited by them so I can't see any reason other than human error that this has happened. As stated yesterday, The Guild cannot comment on individual cases and it is up to the therapists to sort it out directly with them. As far as I know The Guild has only ever insured courses accredited by them and they have said so on more than one occasion on this very site.

Hopefully all of this will help everyone in future to do their homework, make sure that the information they are being given is the correct information from both their trainer and their insurance company and get it in writing that they are covered!

Ok I shall word it like this,

Someone calls the guild and asks if they can be insured and have Kim's certificate, and get told no probs
so who's to blame?
The customer,Kim Or the guild???

They have taken peoples money and told them they have insurance but now they don't surly that's mis selling and quite frankly bang out of order.

Also human error would be for it to happen once not numerous times!

And for the record I'm a hair geek and not one of Kim's students lol
But the guild already know this as they have checked my profile!!

 

[Kim Lawless]

Kim has admitted that she had told students that The Guild would insure them, it was on her own website and has now been removed, Kim said so yesterday.


Gosh.....you go on my website more than me.

What do you mean ADMITTED! Who made you judge and jury! Get your facts right before you start accusing me of anything.

I stand by what I said and I can prove it.........many students have told me that they've sent my certs in to the The Guild and as far as they are concerned, they are insured for my training. Why would they lie to me? I knew they they never used to so I thought they'd had a change of heart. I have no axe to grind with The Guild whatsoever so I was thrilled to hear it but never gave it another thought as I don't get involved with who my students get insured with.

I went onto my website last night and changed the word 'all' to 'most' just so there's no misunderstanding for my lovely students.

Do you really think that I have anything to gain by lying or pretending that they cover my courses?

 

[naturalnails]

We had hoped that the he said, she said would have stopped on this thread. There are so many posts on here which should have been PMs but were made public.

The upshot is that we should all check our insurance for the courses we have done.