Sahara 711
Well-Known Member
Hy am mobile doing tans & nails, I was htinking about offereing lazer teeth whitening too.. Does anyone have any good advice on whom to train with.
Thankya :hug:
Thankya :hug:
Lazer Tooth Whitening
- Thread starter Sahara 711
- Start date
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Jenx
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure, but I think you will struggle to get insured in the UK for this service unless you are either a dental nurse or a dentist.
Not sure though, but I'm sure others will be able to help you xx
Not sure though, but I'm sure others will be able to help you xx
Dan_Sienna
Member
Jenx, you are 100% correct on this, just want to add the following:
I would seriously look at what you are offering if you are thinking about having teeth whitening in your salon.
Ask yourself the questions; who's insurance is it under, what happens if something goes wrong, who will pick up the bill if a clients teeth are damaged, how much do you know about tooth structure and what whitening does.
The reason i say all these things as it is only a GDC registered dentist or a GDC registered Dental Therapist (under prescription from a dentist) that is legally allowed to carry out whitening procedures - please visit http://www.bdbs.co.uk/news.html if you need more information.
I used to work for the world's largest provider of professional tooth whitening products so have a lot of knowledge on this subject.
It never ceases to amaze me how some can be so irresponsible. If you want to undertake medical cosmetic procedures go to any university faculty of health and undertake the appropriate medical training. Nothing less is acceptable. The public deserve better. The number of threads on this forum from BT's who clearly think otherwise is really alarming. I know many will disagree - but at least I have a wealth of experience in this area. Please be more professional.
Dan_Sienna
Member
smooth
Well-Known Member
all teeth whitening should be carried out by a dentist!! They go to university for 5 years to learn about treating the teeth yet there are companies out there who think they can sell a machine and offer a days training to undertake this form of dentistry. The general dental council frown on non dental personnell undertaking dental work.
Thats the way i feel i think its shameful that you can buy teeth whitening products in beauty catalogues.I tell you when you get to your late 40s like i am you really start to value your teeth, skin etc everything you have done in your 20s comes back to haunt you.
Hi
I am amazed that so many who should know better pass off ill infomed opinion as fact. This is not a sign of education or intelligence.
For all those who have alleged teeth whitening/bleaching is illegal - it is not. Rather than simply make this comment I will now support it with evidence so you can see for yourselves:-
Tooth whitening products were confirmed as being cosmetics on 28 June 2001 by the House of Lords ruling in the case of Optident Limited V The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. This means that they fall under the EU Cosmetics Directive (implemented in the UK by the UK Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 1996).
The legal definition of a cosmetic product is:-
any substance or preparation intended for placing in contact with the various external part of the human body or with the teeth and mucous membranes of the oral cavity with a view exclusively or principally to cleaning them, perfuming them or protecting them in order to keep them in good condition, change their appearance or correct body odours
Tooth whitening is therefore a cosmetic procedure and not a dental one.
The phrase teeth whitening and teeth bleaching is a slightly misleading term. The teeth are not bleached. The surface of the tooth under a microscope appears as a closely bunched group of hexagonal rods (imagine holding a bundle of pencils). A chemical is applied to the surface of the tooth which enters the gaps and breaks down the molecules that cause the staining eg tobacco, red wine, food etc. When the staining is gone the teeth are whiter. Its quite simple really.
The teeth whitening proceedure is no more difficult to learn that any other cosmetic treatment.
Tooth whitening has been practised by dentists for over 100 years. The history of modern day tooth bleaching, however, began in 1989 and is credited to Haywood and Heymann who introduced the nightguard method of vital tooth bleaching. At the same time, Omnii International (USA), working with a dentist named John Munro, developed and marketed the first commercially available home-bleaching product. Interestingly enough, this system was initially discovered quite by accident by an orthodontist named William Klusmier. He instructed a patient to use an oral antiseptic containing 10% carbamide peroxide in an orthodontic positioner, which the patient wore at night, in an effort to facilitate tissue healing. The patient returned with improved tissue health and, after using the product for an extended period of time, his teeth were significantly lighter in colour. He began using this technique to lighten teeth. From 1970 to 1975, Klusmier presented his findings at several dental meetings. Haywood and Haymann attended one of these meetings and initiated their clinical and laboratory investigations on the technique as a result.
If anyone has any questions please ask. If anyone has any comments please, please be intelligent about it and suppport what you say with evidence.
This is an excellent revenue generating business but only for those who are better informed over and above "my dentist told me".
JCW
I am amazed that so many who should know better pass off ill infomed opinion as fact. This is not a sign of education or intelligence.
For all those who have alleged teeth whitening/bleaching is illegal - it is not. Rather than simply make this comment I will now support it with evidence so you can see for yourselves:-
Tooth whitening products were confirmed as being cosmetics on 28 June 2001 by the House of Lords ruling in the case of Optident Limited V The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. This means that they fall under the EU Cosmetics Directive (implemented in the UK by the UK Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 1996).
The legal definition of a cosmetic product is:-
any substance or preparation intended for placing in contact with the various external part of the human body or with the teeth and mucous membranes of the oral cavity with a view exclusively or principally to cleaning them, perfuming them or protecting them in order to keep them in good condition, change their appearance or correct body odours
Tooth whitening is therefore a cosmetic procedure and not a dental one.
The phrase teeth whitening and teeth bleaching is a slightly misleading term. The teeth are not bleached. The surface of the tooth under a microscope appears as a closely bunched group of hexagonal rods (imagine holding a bundle of pencils). A chemical is applied to the surface of the tooth which enters the gaps and breaks down the molecules that cause the staining eg tobacco, red wine, food etc. When the staining is gone the teeth are whiter. Its quite simple really.
The teeth whitening proceedure is no more difficult to learn that any other cosmetic treatment.
Tooth whitening has been practised by dentists for over 100 years. The history of modern day tooth bleaching, however, began in 1989 and is credited to Haywood and Heymann who introduced the nightguard method of vital tooth bleaching. At the same time, Omnii International (USA), working with a dentist named John Munro, developed and marketed the first commercially available home-bleaching product. Interestingly enough, this system was initially discovered quite by accident by an orthodontist named William Klusmier. He instructed a patient to use an oral antiseptic containing 10% carbamide peroxide in an orthodontic positioner, which the patient wore at night, in an effort to facilitate tissue healing. The patient returned with improved tissue health and, after using the product for an extended period of time, his teeth were significantly lighter in colour. He began using this technique to lighten teeth. From 1970 to 1975, Klusmier presented his findings at several dental meetings. Haywood and Haymann attended one of these meetings and initiated their clinical and laboratory investigations on the technique as a result.
If anyone has any questions please ask. If anyone has any comments please, please be intelligent about it and suppport what you say with evidence.
This is an excellent revenue generating business but only for those who are better informed over and above "my dentist told me".
JCW
smooth
Well-Known Member
Hmm, do you sell teeth whitening equpment by any chance? If you look at the GDC they do have the opinion that nayone carrying out dental procedures (by that meaning anything to do with the teeth, gums and oral cavity) is doing a dental procedure and as such needs to be registed with the GDC as a professional.
Teeth whitening is not 'cleaning teeth' it is the application of a substance (whatever percentage that is) to the teeth, applying a protective layer to the gums and applying a light source to activate the bleaching agent. By all definition this is not cleaning, this is whitening; some even remove the surface layer of the teeth itself or make it more porous.
Dentists should not bleach teeth either but they can get away with it as they say the alternative is to file down all their teeth and do a mouthful of caps/crowns etc.
Don't be mislead by sales pitches, you should only whiten teeth if you are a dentist and are trained and experienced in assessing whether the teeth are suitable to be whitened.
"The teeth whitening proceedure is no more difficult to learn that any other cosmetic treatment."
Whilst you may think this, it is not as simple as applying a solution to the teeth, you need to assess them and have a knowledge of the tooth that dentists learn from 5 years at university. Can you replicate this in a 1 day training course when your previous job is spray tanning?
Your portayal of teeth whitening as a cosmetic indication based on what you have copied and pasted is shocking! I read that and did not put teeth whitening in this category at all. Contact the GDC and see what they say about it as they are the authority when it comes to teeth and the various procedures associated to them.
Hi
If you are suggesting that only a dentist can do anything to teeth. then your train of logic (what little is there) would suggest that only a dermatologist can deal with or apply substances to skin. Is everyone who rubs creams on skin in a salon a dermatologist. Of course not.
I have no doubt that the GDC as a representative body of a particular profession has a view on this and many other things.
It is important that you understand that the GDC does not make the law in this country. The House of Lords (now called the Supreme Court) is the highest court in this land and its decisions are binding on all of us - even dentists and their representative bodies.
Please do not be shocked at this. The legal structure in the UK has been this way for hundreds of years.
I repeat that teeth whitening/bleaching or the application of a substance to the teeth with a view to cleaning them of staining is not the practise of dentistry. It is a cosmetic treatment.
This is not my view it is a statement of the law as it stands today.
Read the case at Optident Limited V The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. Please ask me if you have any questions on this.
I can assure you that dentists do not take 5 years to learn teeth whitening or tooth structure. I would worry about the general intelligence of a person who takes this long to learn so little.
Teeth whitening and tooth structure can quite easily be taught in one day. I learnt it and I know many others who have learnt it in that time. OK so some people are a bit slower than others in the learning new information department.
Teeth whitening is teeth cleaning. Please read the information I provided as i thought it was clear. To repeat - over time staining enters the tooth structure. The whitening/bleaching chemical breaks down the stains bringing the tooth back to the colour it was before staining occured. This means the teeth are cleaner and whiter (or more ivory if that was the natutal colour). This how teeth whitening/bleaching works. This is thew way it has always worked. As previously explained nothing is actually bleached.
I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that the removal of staining is not the same as cleaning. As an simple analogy try putting stained white clothes into a washing machine. Look at what happens when the stains are removed.
You say that 'some even remove the surface layer of the teeth'. As requested in my previous email it would be better if you could support any claims with evidence. Please let us know the medical journal in which you read the claim. I would like to read it also.
I am happy to answer any questions you have but please try to avoid the Sun reader mentality by making unsubstantiated claims and untruths.
J
If you are suggesting that only a dentist can do anything to teeth. then your train of logic (what little is there) would suggest that only a dermatologist can deal with or apply substances to skin. Is everyone who rubs creams on skin in a salon a dermatologist. Of course not.
I have no doubt that the GDC as a representative body of a particular profession has a view on this and many other things.
It is important that you understand that the GDC does not make the law in this country. The House of Lords (now called the Supreme Court) is the highest court in this land and its decisions are binding on all of us - even dentists and their representative bodies.
Please do not be shocked at this. The legal structure in the UK has been this way for hundreds of years.
I repeat that teeth whitening/bleaching or the application of a substance to the teeth with a view to cleaning them of staining is not the practise of dentistry. It is a cosmetic treatment.
This is not my view it is a statement of the law as it stands today.
Read the case at Optident Limited V The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. Please ask me if you have any questions on this.
I can assure you that dentists do not take 5 years to learn teeth whitening or tooth structure. I would worry about the general intelligence of a person who takes this long to learn so little.
Teeth whitening and tooth structure can quite easily be taught in one day. I learnt it and I know many others who have learnt it in that time. OK so some people are a bit slower than others in the learning new information department.
Teeth whitening is teeth cleaning. Please read the information I provided as i thought it was clear. To repeat - over time staining enters the tooth structure. The whitening/bleaching chemical breaks down the stains bringing the tooth back to the colour it was before staining occured. This means the teeth are cleaner and whiter (or more ivory if that was the natutal colour). This how teeth whitening/bleaching works. This is thew way it has always worked. As previously explained nothing is actually bleached.
I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that the removal of staining is not the same as cleaning. As an simple analogy try putting stained white clothes into a washing machine. Look at what happens when the stains are removed.
You say that 'some even remove the surface layer of the teeth'. As requested in my previous email it would be better if you could support any claims with evidence. Please let us know the medical journal in which you read the claim. I would like to read it also.
I am happy to answer any questions you have but please try to avoid the Sun reader mentality by making unsubstantiated claims and untruths.
J
smooth
Well-Known Member
Please do not insult my intelligence, you clearly believe you are right in the fact that you either operate these systems yourself or you sell the products. In which case you are going to fight your corner. As a matter of fact and this comes from dentists all over the UK, the amount of amateurs who undertake teeth whitening and causing damage to the teeth is unbelievable, so yes you, as an amateur and not qualified to do dentistry, will be in this category. I know about the teeth, we did health promotion but am I qualified to do anything that actually touches the teeth, no and neither are you! FACT. Even doctors cannot do anything that has anything to do with the teeth or gums for the same reason, the only doctor you will find exploring this area is a max fax person who has done a degree in medicine and dentistry.
So your little take on dermatologists and anyone else touching the skin is a load of rubbish, what dermatologists do in comparison to anyone doing a facial is entirely different. Now I can probably hear you say but that is the same to dentistry and teeth whitening, but no it is not. Teeth whitening does not clean the teeth, or every single dental surgery in the UK would be advertising it as advanced teeth clearning, the reason they don't is because it isn't.
I find it quite funny that one minute you say it is not bleaching and then you do, but later say again that it isn't. Continuity is always a good thing. I have even seen damage to gums following teeth whitening performed by someone not qualified. Do they go and complain? No, because their general thought is it cost me £79!! I don't know how many times I see people like you advertising this treatment and before you know it they are gone to avoid come back.
Also, you mention medical journals, well I think you mean dental journals don't you? As I mentioned before please feel to find information from dentists on how the likes of unqualified people who have damaged people's teeth by undertaking these procedures when you are not qualified to assess the teeth in the first place. This is why the GDC have such strict rules on who can carry out dentistry. If they couldn't stop people from practicing why would they have a section on their website advising the public on how to report unqualified people offering dental procedures. How many non dentists do you know doing fillings, caps, crowns or the odd apicoectomy here and there? None I bet, so what other dental procedure could you be reported for, erm teeth whitening perhaps?
It would be wonderful to see if you were reported to the GDC what they would do, are you brave enough to give them your information?
The 5 years dentists take to train is an important aspect on how qualified they are to assess and carry out such procedures, I did not mean that they take 5 years learning about teeth and if you were sharp you would know this. They spend this time learning everything about the oral cavity (especially the teeth) and how to assess and treat.
Hi
I look forward to seeing evidence of the intelligence you speak of that you wish to demonstrate. In the absence of this your email reply is looking rather like an ill informed rant.
'the amount of amateurs who undertake teeth whitening and causing damage to the teeth is unbelievable'
I did ask that comments be supported by evidence p please present objective evidence that would support this statement. If you cannot please retract it or make it clear that it is your view and you are unable to support it.
'so yes you, as an amateur and not qualified to do dentistry, will be in this category'
I'm not entirely sure about what is being communicated here. If you are telling us that dentists are qualified to carry out dentistry and those who are not dentists are qualified to carry out dentistry then you would be correct although really this is a statement of obvious.
'I know about the teeth, we did health promotion'
Wow, I'm impressed. Gosh you must know so much about the teeth then. Sadly your comments do tend to suggest that you are confusing what is known, provable fact with your opinion.
'but am I qualified to do anything that actually touches the teeth, no and neither are you! FACT'
I feel like you have not read or not understood my previous posts about the legal decision made on teeth whitening in the case of Optident. I offered to explain it to anyone who was not sure. To repeat from numerous previous posts - you are qualified to do things that touch the teeth. And so am I. In fact we all are. I repeat that teeth whitening/bleaching or the application of a substance to the teeth with a view to cleaning them of staining is not the practise of dentistry. It is a cosmetic treatment. This is not my view it is a statement of the law as it stands today. Read the case at Optident Limited V The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. Please ask me if you have any questions on this.
'Even doctors cannot do anything that has anything to do with the teeth or gums for the same reason'
Do you have evidence to support this claim. I rather suspect this is not true. While doctors may prefer to send a patient to a dentist for denatl treatment I doubt that a doctor 'cannot do anything al all' as you claim.
'Teeth whitening does not clean the teeth'
What an odd statement to make. I'm beginning to think you definately did not read or understand my previous posts. As previously explained - over time staining enters the tooth structure. The whitening/bleaching chemical breaks down the stains bringing the tooth back to the colour it was before staining occured. This means the teeth are cleaner and whiter (or more ivory if that was the natutal colour). This how teeth whitening/bleaching works. This is the way it has always worked.
'I don't know how many times I see people like you advertising this treatment and before you know it they are gone to avoid come back.'
Here at last you are correct - you do not know how many times you see people like me advertising this treatment. If you do not know something then either do not say it or ask. For the record I have not advertised 'this treatment' on this forum. My salon has been running successfully for over 5 years and I have many satisfied clients.
'Also, you mention medical journals, well I think you mean dental journals don't you?'
No.
'please feel to find information from dentists on how the likes of unqualified people who have damaged people's teeth by undertaking these procedures'
If you are presenting something as fact then it is really you that should be presenting the evidence that woulds suuport that fact. Let us all know the name of the journal (medical or dental) where you read this information that you presenting.
'the GDC have such strict rules on who can carry out dentistry.'
Actually the rules about who can carry out the practise of dentistry is contained within the Dentists Act. Although I'm not sure how this is relevant as the House of Lords decided in the Optident case that teeth whitening is not the practise of dentistry it is a cosmetic procedure.
'so what other dental procedure could you be reported for, erm teeth whitening perhaps?'
I'm not sure how this is relevant as the House of Lords decided in the Optident case that teeth whitening is not the practise of dentistry it is a cosmetic procedure. I feel like I have siad this to many times to count and still it struggles to enter your thinking processes what few you have demonstrated.
'I did not mean that they take 5 years learning about teeth'
Actually you implied that dentists spend 5 years learning about teeth whitening.
Look, I'm happy to help answer any questions you or anyone has but you really must stop ranting ill informed comment and trying to pass it off as fact. You may of an age or character where this would be difficult but with perseverance I am sure you would be able to listen and take on board the evidence. Good luck.
I look forward to seeing evidence of the intelligence you speak of that you wish to demonstrate. In the absence of this your email reply is looking rather like an ill informed rant.
'the amount of amateurs who undertake teeth whitening and causing damage to the teeth is unbelievable'
I did ask that comments be supported by evidence p please present objective evidence that would support this statement. If you cannot please retract it or make it clear that it is your view and you are unable to support it.
'so yes you, as an amateur and not qualified to do dentistry, will be in this category'
I'm not entirely sure about what is being communicated here. If you are telling us that dentists are qualified to carry out dentistry and those who are not dentists are qualified to carry out dentistry then you would be correct although really this is a statement of obvious.
'I know about the teeth, we did health promotion'
Wow, I'm impressed. Gosh you must know so much about the teeth then. Sadly your comments do tend to suggest that you are confusing what is known, provable fact with your opinion.
'but am I qualified to do anything that actually touches the teeth, no and neither are you! FACT'
I feel like you have not read or not understood my previous posts about the legal decision made on teeth whitening in the case of Optident. I offered to explain it to anyone who was not sure. To repeat from numerous previous posts - you are qualified to do things that touch the teeth. And so am I. In fact we all are. I repeat that teeth whitening/bleaching or the application of a substance to the teeth with a view to cleaning them of staining is not the practise of dentistry. It is a cosmetic treatment. This is not my view it is a statement of the law as it stands today. Read the case at Optident Limited V The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. Please ask me if you have any questions on this.
'Even doctors cannot do anything that has anything to do with the teeth or gums for the same reason'
Do you have evidence to support this claim. I rather suspect this is not true. While doctors may prefer to send a patient to a dentist for denatl treatment I doubt that a doctor 'cannot do anything al all' as you claim.
'Teeth whitening does not clean the teeth'
What an odd statement to make. I'm beginning to think you definately did not read or understand my previous posts. As previously explained - over time staining enters the tooth structure. The whitening/bleaching chemical breaks down the stains bringing the tooth back to the colour it was before staining occured. This means the teeth are cleaner and whiter (or more ivory if that was the natutal colour). This how teeth whitening/bleaching works. This is the way it has always worked.
'I don't know how many times I see people like you advertising this treatment and before you know it they are gone to avoid come back.'
Here at last you are correct - you do not know how many times you see people like me advertising this treatment. If you do not know something then either do not say it or ask. For the record I have not advertised 'this treatment' on this forum. My salon has been running successfully for over 5 years and I have many satisfied clients.
'Also, you mention medical journals, well I think you mean dental journals don't you?'
No.
'please feel to find information from dentists on how the likes of unqualified people who have damaged people's teeth by undertaking these procedures'
If you are presenting something as fact then it is really you that should be presenting the evidence that woulds suuport that fact. Let us all know the name of the journal (medical or dental) where you read this information that you presenting.
'the GDC have such strict rules on who can carry out dentistry.'
Actually the rules about who can carry out the practise of dentistry is contained within the Dentists Act. Although I'm not sure how this is relevant as the House of Lords decided in the Optident case that teeth whitening is not the practise of dentistry it is a cosmetic procedure.
'so what other dental procedure could you be reported for, erm teeth whitening perhaps?'
I'm not sure how this is relevant as the House of Lords decided in the Optident case that teeth whitening is not the practise of dentistry it is a cosmetic procedure. I feel like I have siad this to many times to count and still it struggles to enter your thinking processes what few you have demonstrated.
'I did not mean that they take 5 years learning about teeth'
Actually you implied that dentists spend 5 years learning about teeth whitening.
Look, I'm happy to help answer any questions you or anyone has but you really must stop ranting ill informed comment and trying to pass it off as fact. You may of an age or character where this would be difficult but with perseverance I am sure you would be able to listen and take on board the evidence. Good luck.
Sharkster
Well-Known Member
This is an exciting thread I must say!
To get back to Sahara 711 I think the only answer must be that you contact your insurance company and see if they will be happy to insure you to carry out this type of treatment. If not, then don't.
I know nothing of the dental industry except the fact that it hurts my mouth and my wallet ever time I go to see my Dentist! But in my own personal opinion I would only ever see my Dentist for a whitening treatment.
x
To get back to Sahara 711 I think the only answer must be that you contact your insurance company and see if they will be happy to insure you to carry out this type of treatment. If not, then don't.
I know nothing of the dental industry except the fact that it hurts my mouth and my wallet ever time I go to see my Dentist! But in my own personal opinion I would only ever see my Dentist for a whitening treatment.
x
Last edited:
To recommend the purchase of financial products, such as insurance, requires a licence from the FSA. I do not have an FSA license and so cannot point anyone to any specific financial product but I am aware of at least two insurance companies that will cover teeth whitening - one is Sinclair and the other is Hamilton Robertson.
smooth
Well-Known Member
In case you hadn't noticed, I have replied above and in case you wish to get into another slanging match please do not post here, PM me instead.
Hi again
I enjoy locking locking horns with you. You have lots of emotion untempered by reason or logic.
Please excuse any spelling mistakezzzzz.
'but does that mean you are qualified? No it doesn't.'
Yes it does actually. See the decision of the House of Lords in the Optident case. Have you read it yet or is it too much of an inconvenient truth for you.
'You can easily find this yourself if you are capable of searching journals, dental journals '
Maybe I could find it myself but this really misses the point that where you are presenting something that you wish to be taken as a fact the responsibility then rests on you to support that with evidence. To date you have yet to present one shred of verifiable evidence. This could be for one of two reasons 1. You do not have any, or 2. you do have the evidence and are able to quote it or refer to the journal it is contained within but have chosen not to do so. For the record I must insist you let us know.
I would very much like to read the journals either medical or dental that you have read which have provided you with the information that you are presenting on this forum that would support conclusively your ascertations.
I'm afraid that "I did health promotion" and " I know a doctor" just does not help me or anyone else verify the opinions you are trying to present as facts.
'why are they promoting the prosecution of people undertaking dental procedures '
Seems hardly relevant as in the decision of the House of Lords in the Optident case the practise of teeth whietning is a cosmetic proceedure.
'bet everything I own that they know more about teeth than you'
I would hope so - I'm not a dentist and thus do not undertake the practise of dentistry.
I am however the owner of a business that makes money entirely legally. With this money I pay taxes and put food on the table and have several holidays a year in the sun.
Good luck with the health promotion. I think it must be something I help to pay for via my taxes as it doesn't really sound like a viable business model.
I enjoy locking locking horns with you. You have lots of emotion untempered by reason or logic.
Please excuse any spelling mistakezzzzz.
'but does that mean you are qualified? No it doesn't.'
Yes it does actually. See the decision of the House of Lords in the Optident case. Have you read it yet or is it too much of an inconvenient truth for you.
'You can easily find this yourself if you are capable of searching journals, dental journals '
Maybe I could find it myself but this really misses the point that where you are presenting something that you wish to be taken as a fact the responsibility then rests on you to support that with evidence. To date you have yet to present one shred of verifiable evidence. This could be for one of two reasons 1. You do not have any, or 2. you do have the evidence and are able to quote it or refer to the journal it is contained within but have chosen not to do so. For the record I must insist you let us know.
I would very much like to read the journals either medical or dental that you have read which have provided you with the information that you are presenting on this forum that would support conclusively your ascertations.
I'm afraid that "I did health promotion" and " I know a doctor" just does not help me or anyone else verify the opinions you are trying to present as facts.
'why are they promoting the prosecution of people undertaking dental procedures '
Seems hardly relevant as in the decision of the House of Lords in the Optident case the practise of teeth whietning is a cosmetic proceedure.
'bet everything I own that they know more about teeth than you'
I would hope so - I'm not a dentist and thus do not undertake the practise of dentistry.
I am however the owner of a business that makes money entirely legally. With this money I pay taxes and put food on the table and have several holidays a year in the sun.
Good luck with the health promotion. I think it must be something I help to pay for via my taxes as it doesn't really sound like a viable business model.
naturalnails
Legend
We all love a good debate but please be mindful of the Geek Commandments!
http://www.salongeek.com/how-do-stuff-site/31101-commandments-geek.html
http://www.salongeek.com/how-do-stuff-site/31101-commandments-geek.html
smooth
Well-Known Member
<H4>Sorry everyone for the first part being in bold, the reply wouldn't let me take it off.</H4><H4>I don't personally have horns to lock with you, I am replying to your ludicrous claims. Now I am surprised that you can copy and paste a variety of sections from websites but cannot do a simple search for the Dentists Act, or do a simple on line search for dental journals. To save you this work I have copied some information for you (that is what you have been biting at the bit for isn't it?). Now I did not find this painful at all but what I do find painful is your lack of common sense and constant desire to put yourself on a pedestal and try to put down others on here. </H4>
What you are failing to realise is my experience goes far beyond what you possess, I am no longer in health promotion at a very high level within the NHS. I am a business woman yet I still work with many doctors and dentists and have had the pleasure of doing this for the past 12 years so whilst you think you may know more than I do concerning medical and dental aspects, you may actually not.
My comment on knowing "a doctor" is not a throw away one but a way to prove that I know that they do not deal with the one location that a dentist does. I even attempted to explain to you the difference between dentists, doctors and dual qualified practitioners but I fear this fell on deaf ears. So please feel free to read below, feel free to do a search yourself inbetween your many holidays and paying taxes for further evidence of how people like you, unqualified, yes I will say it again, unqualified are practicing things you shouldn't and there are patients out there having their teeth damaged by unqualifed people such as yourself, unless you are a dentist and have just failed to tell us all this?
Attending a one day course does not make you qualified, it makes you certified. Did you receive a certificate of attendance for this training? If so, this does not even prove competence. A qualification is a recognised one with some sort of body that has been gained through attendance at school, college or university. Think NVQ beauty, GCSE, A level, BTEC, Diploma of Higher Education, Degree in Medicine or Dentistry, Masters level, phd, rather than a one day training course in equipment you have paid a premium for.
<H4> Copy from site:</H4><H4>Tooth whitening - see your dentist first</H4>The General Dental Council is here to make sure patients get the best standards of care and that the public can be confident that the profession is being properly regulated. If youre thinking about getting tooth whitening, speak to your dentist. A dentist will be able to advise you whether or not you are suitable for tooth whitening treatment. Dentists, hygienists and therapists will be able to discuss the options available to patients along with an estimation of treatment costs.
<H5>Complaints about tooth whitening
We regard tooth whitening as dentistry and under the Dentists Act 1984, dentistry can only be legally undertaken by GDC registrants. When it comes to tooth whitening we state it can only be carried out by registered dentists, or hygienists or therapists working to a dentists prescription.
The issue of tooth whitening presents the GDC with a legally complex situation. Several companies which produce tooth whitening systems claim that, as tooth whitening agents are covered by the European Council Directive on Cosmetic Products (76/68.EEC), their agents are not practising dentistry.
We have been sent around six hundred complaints in the past three years about tooth whitening treatments being carried out in salons and clinics by non-registrants. We have written to relevant salons to give our position and are retaining their details for future action as considered appropriate. We are currently exploring different approaches to tackling the issue in order to protect the public in the most effective way.
We investigate allegations of patient harm as a result of tooth whitening and, where we have enough evidence, we will proceed with prosecution. We will also take action against any of our registrants who are carrying out this procedure outside our Scope of Practice guidance, which explains which members of the dental team should do this treatment.
If we receive information that the law is being broken, we can instruct our solicitors to investigate and gather evidence. This evidence goes through a two stage test in accordance with the code for Crown Prosecutors.
Is there sufficient evidence for there to be a realistic prospect of conviction?
If there is, is it in the public interest to pursue the matter to a prosecution?
Where these two tests are passed, our solicitors can take the case to a Magistrates Court. A fine can be imposed if the prosecution is successful.
If you have a complaint which involves:
What is the practice of dentistry?
</H5>The practice of dentistry is limited to GDC registrants. It is the Councils view that applying materials and carrying out procedures designed to improve the aesthetic appearance of teeth amounts to the practice of dentistry. So too does the giving of clinical advice about such procedures. Therefore all tooth whitening procedures, including bleach and laser treatment, are seen as the practice of dentistry by the General Dental Council.
Which GDC registrants can undertake tooth whitening?
Until recently, it was the Councils position that only dentists could undertake tooth whitening. At the Council meeting in June 2008, it was decided that in addition to dentists being able to carry out tooth whitening, dental hygienists and dental therapists, on the prescription of a dentist, can carry out tooth whitening as an additional skill.
It has also been decided that dental nurses can, as an additional skill, take impressions and make bleaching trays to a dentists prescription. Any registrant who undertakes work for which they are not sufficiently competent risks fitness to practise proceedings which may affect their registration.
End of copy.
Also have in mind that when a case goes to court they have to have expert witness reports, so in the case of a procedure involving the teeth, who will they go to? A dentist as they are THE industry recognised profession for being experts in teeth. Are manufacturers of teeth whitening light units experts in teeth? I would very much doubt it. Would they call on you as an expert in teeth? If your name is not on the GDC registrant list then again no they wouldn't. Sorry to burst your blinkered bubble but please feel free to stay in denial but kindly stop belittling and posting derogatory comments unless you want to send a PM. I doubt you will do this as I have now had to say this twice but you have failed to take this on board.
What you are failing to realise is my experience goes far beyond what you possess, I am no longer in health promotion at a very high level within the NHS. I am a business woman yet I still work with many doctors and dentists and have had the pleasure of doing this for the past 12 years so whilst you think you may know more than I do concerning medical and dental aspects, you may actually not.
My comment on knowing "a doctor" is not a throw away one but a way to prove that I know that they do not deal with the one location that a dentist does. I even attempted to explain to you the difference between dentists, doctors and dual qualified practitioners but I fear this fell on deaf ears. So please feel free to read below, feel free to do a search yourself inbetween your many holidays and paying taxes for further evidence of how people like you, unqualified, yes I will say it again, unqualified are practicing things you shouldn't and there are patients out there having their teeth damaged by unqualifed people such as yourself, unless you are a dentist and have just failed to tell us all this?
Attending a one day course does not make you qualified, it makes you certified. Did you receive a certificate of attendance for this training? If so, this does not even prove competence. A qualification is a recognised one with some sort of body that has been gained through attendance at school, college or university. Think NVQ beauty, GCSE, A level, BTEC, Diploma of Higher Education, Degree in Medicine or Dentistry, Masters level, phd, rather than a one day training course in equipment you have paid a premium for.
<H4> Copy from site:</H4><H4>Tooth whitening - see your dentist first</H4>The General Dental Council is here to make sure patients get the best standards of care and that the public can be confident that the profession is being properly regulated. If youre thinking about getting tooth whitening, speak to your dentist. A dentist will be able to advise you whether or not you are suitable for tooth whitening treatment. Dentists, hygienists and therapists will be able to discuss the options available to patients along with an estimation of treatment costs.
<H5>Complaints about tooth whitening
We regard tooth whitening as dentistry and under the Dentists Act 1984, dentistry can only be legally undertaken by GDC registrants. When it comes to tooth whitening we state it can only be carried out by registered dentists, or hygienists or therapists working to a dentists prescription.
The issue of tooth whitening presents the GDC with a legally complex situation. Several companies which produce tooth whitening systems claim that, as tooth whitening agents are covered by the European Council Directive on Cosmetic Products (76/68.EEC), their agents are not practising dentistry.
We have been sent around six hundred complaints in the past three years about tooth whitening treatments being carried out in salons and clinics by non-registrants. We have written to relevant salons to give our position and are retaining their details for future action as considered appropriate. We are currently exploring different approaches to tackling the issue in order to protect the public in the most effective way.
We investigate allegations of patient harm as a result of tooth whitening and, where we have enough evidence, we will proceed with prosecution. We will also take action against any of our registrants who are carrying out this procedure outside our Scope of Practice guidance, which explains which members of the dental team should do this treatment.
If we receive information that the law is being broken, we can instruct our solicitors to investigate and gather evidence. This evidence goes through a two stage test in accordance with the code for Crown Prosecutors.
Is there sufficient evidence for there to be a realistic prospect of conviction?
If there is, is it in the public interest to pursue the matter to a prosecution?
Where these two tests are passed, our solicitors can take the case to a Magistrates Court. A fine can be imposed if the prosecution is successful.
If you have a complaint which involves:
- documented evidence of patient harm;
- a patient who is, or may be, willing to co-operate with the GDC; or
- an allegation of registrant practice outside the scope of practice guidance
What is the practice of dentistry?
</H5>The practice of dentistry is limited to GDC registrants. It is the Councils view that applying materials and carrying out procedures designed to improve the aesthetic appearance of teeth amounts to the practice of dentistry. So too does the giving of clinical advice about such procedures. Therefore all tooth whitening procedures, including bleach and laser treatment, are seen as the practice of dentistry by the General Dental Council.
Which GDC registrants can undertake tooth whitening?
Until recently, it was the Councils position that only dentists could undertake tooth whitening. At the Council meeting in June 2008, it was decided that in addition to dentists being able to carry out tooth whitening, dental hygienists and dental therapists, on the prescription of a dentist, can carry out tooth whitening as an additional skill.
It has also been decided that dental nurses can, as an additional skill, take impressions and make bleaching trays to a dentists prescription. Any registrant who undertakes work for which they are not sufficiently competent risks fitness to practise proceedings which may affect their registration.
End of copy.
Also have in mind that when a case goes to court they have to have expert witness reports, so in the case of a procedure involving the teeth, who will they go to? A dentist as they are THE industry recognised profession for being experts in teeth. Are manufacturers of teeth whitening light units experts in teeth? I would very much doubt it. Would they call on you as an expert in teeth? If your name is not on the GDC registrant list then again no they wouldn't. Sorry to burst your blinkered bubble but please feel free to stay in denial but kindly stop belittling and posting derogatory comments unless you want to send a PM. I doubt you will do this as I have now had to say this twice but you have failed to take this on board.
smooth
Well-Known Member
Just before this thread gets closed, just wanted to say that the NHS is a successful business in that you get free treatment and whilst it may be in debt, the UK would be hit hard if it finished and we had to pay for treatment as they do in the USA. Also, you certainly don't pay for anything that I do, I have 25 clinics, all sole trader and a ltd company that trains medical professionals. I have many qualifications and many certificates all of which enhance both of my businesses. I left the NHS a few years ago and even though I set up 7 clinics 7 years ago, I stayed in the NHS so I was working 37 hours NHS then spent evening and weekends doing private work.
I reduced my NHS hours to concentrate on my private business. I managed to do this alongside having 4 children and being a single parent. Last year I had another baby and got married, my husband works in both of my businesses after selling his London based business, but to keep some sanity he also spends a couple of months each year teaching European armies how to search for road side bombs and utilise hand held mine detectors effectively.
I'm telling you this so you do not think I am some meak, pathetic, silly young girl who somehow holds a grudge against the world. My life is wonderful, my family are perfect and I have some of the most dedicated and content clients to make my career worth while.
