Catalysts and Initiators

[Arty*Rox]

Just want to add in here that ive been following this thread and have loved it, it makes me realize how uninformed I am about the science behind the product. I have my nose in nailclass which is fantastic, but I'm defiantly going to order Nail Structure and Product Chemistry and see if I can blow a few brain cell's trying to get my head round it, science at school wasn't my strong point, its this kind of reading that makes me wish I had listened more all those years ago hehe

Thankyou

 

[geeg]

Just want to add in here that ive been following this thread and have loved it, it makes me realize how uninformed I am about the science behind the product. I have my nose in nailclass which is fantastic, but I'm defiantly going to order Nail Structure and Product Chemistry and see if I can blow a few brain cell's trying to get my head round it, science at school wasn't my strong point, its this kind of reading that makes me wish I had listened more all those years ago hehe

Thankyou

Believe me, the book is not dull. Doug makes it all very understandable to the non science type of person. Not scary at all.

 

[Rinn]

So, to wade in and try to explain!

The initiator is an ingredient that will start the polymerisation process but it will not start this until it is 'triggered'. This is where the catalyst comes in as this is the 'trigger'.

The catalyst is not altered in the chemical process, it is just the trigger. The initiator is, however, part of the process and is altered in some way and becomes part of the polymerised plastic. benzoyl peroxide, for example, is completely used up very early on in the process.

All of the 'systems' need both a catalyst and initiator to successfully polymerise in a controlled way. The relationship between these two is very carefully balanced formula in sophisticated products. A very good reason for not mixing brands!

As Geeg has said, there is a certain amount of confusion when using 'initiator' as a noun and a chemical term and 'initiate' as a verb in normal vocabulary (e.g. initiate conversation, i.e start conversation)

With reference to my book the text explains this relatively complicated process and how it differs in the various systems. (There are many aspects of my book that go above and beyond what the typical technician needs but that is my approach! Know and understand as much as possible as problems can then be solved by deduction for those that like this level of understanding. Essential in my belief ) However, the Glossary has complicated my explanation! This and the index is written by other individuals. For some reason benzoyl peroxide is listed as a catalyst! I missed it so no excuse!!

The relevant explanation is in the main body of the book.

i don't have marian's book but after reading this intend to get it.
science is not my forte so bear with me please
so there are initiators in both the monomer & polymer of the L&P system that will happily sit there until triggered by the combining of the two and inconjunction with heat ( as in the warmth of the finger).
does that mean then that if both your liquid and powder are kept in the right conditions they will remain potentially active or does the ability of the ingredients to become activated degrade through time? i.e do they expire ?

 

[Wellyb]

Mind blowing stuff but I love it too. My Christmas stocking is going to be full of books this year I can't wait

 

[geeg]

i don't have marian's book but after reading this intend to get it.
science is not my forte so bear with me please
so there are initiators in both the monomer & polymer of the L&P system that will happily sit there until triggered by the combining of the two and inconjunction with heat ( as in the warmth of the finger).
does that mean then that if both your liquid and powder are kept in the right conditions they will remain potentially active or does the ability of the ingredients to become activated degrade through time? i.e do they expire ?

There may be initiators in both the L & P in some systems (the poster said NSI but I CANNOT CONFIRM). With most systems it is my understanding that the initiator is the BP in the powder that is the initiator.

I have never ever had my CND monomer 'go off' but CND (and any other company I know) will not guarantee after one year ... naturally ... who knows how it has been kept if its a year old?

 

[Envy]

There may be initiators in both the L & P in some systems (the poster said NSI but I CANNOT CONFIRM). With most systems it is my understanding that the initiator is the BP in the powder that is the initiator.

I have never ever had my CND monomer 'go off' but CND (and any other company I know) will not guarantee after one year ... naturally ... who knows how it has been kept if its a year old?

As Geeg said benzoyl peroxide is the initiator in CND powders. It is a minute particle that is both free and attached to the polymer beads.

This free radical is happy to share energy with ema monomers. Once they have this extra energy they have to get rid of it. They do this by grabbing another monomer and bonding. This one then in turn does the same until soon there are millions joined in long chains.

Some monomer brands use boosters (catalysts) in the monomer to try and ensure their blend acheives complete polymerization when they can not ensure even distribution of BP or where the monomer reaction can fail prior to full cure.

BP does degrade very slowly if stored well (cool and dry)

Monomer can also degrade in warm or unsealed conditions. It can semi cure and form a jelly or thicken as it slowly forms small chains

Hths

 

[Rinn]

so the amine...it is in the same family as ammonia which would explain the strong smell and this of course over time could evaporate ...
this is also an initator found in the liquid.
sorry now to be a pain but just want to make sure i have it right

 

[geeg]

so the amine...it is in the same family as ammonia which would explain the strong smell and this of course over time could evaporate ...
this is also an initator found in the liquid.
sorry now to be a pain but just want to make sure i have it right

I have no idea what is in NSI liquid. (I took the poster's word for it).

 

[mum]

i don't have marian's book but after reading this intend to get it.
science is not my forte so bear with me please
so there are initiators in both the monomer & polymer of the L&P system that will happily sit there until triggered by the combining of the two and inconjunction with heat ( as in the warmth of the finger).
does that mean then that if both your liquid and powder are kept in the right conditions they will remain potentially active or does the ability of the ingredients to become activated degrade through time? i.e do they expire ?

My understanding is that, in the advanced l&p systems (i.e. those that have been meticulously researched and developed for nails rather than the dental and hearing aid industries) the key initiators and catalysts are separate with the initiator in the powder and catalyst in the monomer.

However, there are external 'catalysts' such as heat and light (i.e. energy!). Monomers (single and short chain molecules) do have a close relationship with each other and want to pair up to form longer chains (polymers)! Exposed to suitable energy as a catalyst they will start to do this. So, if a monomer liquid is exposed to heat or light, over time it will start to polymerise. If you leave monomer in a dappen dish it will start to get sticky or if you don't look after your bottle of monomer by storing it properly it will thicken.

Powder won't do this as it isn't actually a powder (i.e. a solid ground up). It is very clever little polymer beads that have been carefully manufactured to be the correct size and able to release the initiator when mixed with their correct catalyst. The beads sit very neatly in the resulting plastic that has actually been formed by the liquid giving it structure and strength.

Ain't science wonderful!! :lick:

 

[Rinn]

that's brilliant, thanks for helping me understand it all.

i've got it by George i've got it !!

 

[DaniG]

So, to wade in and try to explain!

The initiator is an ingredient that will start the polymerisation process but it will not start this until it is 'triggered'. This is where the catalyst comes in as this is the 'trigger'.

The catalyst is not altered in the chemical process, it is just the trigger. The initiator is, however, part of the process and is altered in some way and becomes part of the polymerised plastic. benzoyl peroxide, for example, is completely used up very early on in the process.

All of the 'systems' need both a catalyst and initiator to successfully polymerise in a controlled way. The relationship between these two is very carefully balanced formula in sophisticated products. A very good reason for not mixing brands!

As Geeg has said, there is a certain amount of confusion when using 'initiator' as a noun and a chemical term and 'initiate' as a verb in normal vocabulary (e.g. initiate conversation, i.e start conversation)

With reference to my book the text explains this relatively complicated process and how it differs in the various systems. (There are many aspects of my book that go above and beyond what the typical technician needs but that is my approach! Know and understand as much as possible as problems can then be solved by deduction for those that like this level of understanding. Essential in my belief ) However, the Glossary has complicated my explanation! This and the index is written by other individuals. For some reason benzoyl peroxide is listed as a catalyst! I missed it so no excuse!!

The relevant explanation is in the main body of the book.

Sorry, I missed is post until I saw it quoted! Thanks for clearing this up for me!

 

[Doug Schoon]

To clarify, catalysts speed up or slow down chemical reactions. They DO NOT initiate them. For instance, benzoyl peroxide is the initiator in liquid and powder systems, while DNPH is a typical catalyst that speeds up these reactions and makes the initiator work more quickly. There are dozens of catalyst and initiators that can be used in artificial nail products. Heat and light are energy sources and catalyst and initiator use this energy to drive the chemical reactions. I discuss all of this in my book, Nail Structure and Product Chemistry, Second Edition.

I hope that helps,
Doug

 

[Victoriabar]

That's fab, thanks Doug.

I'm off to the library tomorrow to take your book out again I think the library need to get in more
(Although I will own my own along with nailclass one day)

 

[geeg]

To clarify, catalysts speed up or slow down chemical reactions. They DO NOT initiate them. For instance, benzoyl peroxide is the initiator in liquid and powder systems, while DNPH is a typical catalyst that speeds up these reactions and makes the initiator work more quickly. There are dozens of catalyst and initiators that can be used in artificial nail products. Heat and light are energy sources and catalyst and initiator use this energy to drive the chemical reactions. I discuss all of this in my book, Nail Structure and Product Chemistry, Second Edition.

I hope that helps,
Doug

As my lovely friend says, it's all there in his book, without him having to write it all out again. What kind of a technician does not own Doug Schoon's book? A disinterested one, that who.

 

[Victoriabar]

As my lovely friend says, it's all there in his book, without him having to write it all out again. What kind of a technician does not own Doug Schoon's book? A disinterested one, that who.

And one that's saving like crazy to buy the books she so desires but keeps loaning them from the library until she can own her own lovely set
That'll be me then

 

[geeg]

And one that's saving like crazy to buy the books she so desires but keeps loaning them from the library until she can own her own lovely set
That'll be me then

It wasn't a personal comment, Victoria. :hug:

 

[Wellyb]

We all value the information you fantastic experts give us freely on here. Times are tough for many of us and investing in ongoing education though vital isn't always easy in this tough economic situation. Thank goodness we can access you all on here and seek out at least some of what we strive to learn. And thank you to you all for volunteering your expertise

 

[Rinn]

bumping this up as Doug Schoon's webinar is on a 7pm this evening.I found this thread interesting so cannot wait for the webinar..don't forget!

 

[Victoriabar]

It wasn't a personal comment, Victoria. :hug:

Lol I know that Geeg made me smile when I read it and I totally agree with you.
Once I'd looked through all the books I knew I had to have them,

 

[Pinkbunny28]

Lol I know that Geeg made me smile when I read it and I totally agree with you.
Once I'd looked through all the books I knew I had to have them,

Did you borrow them from your local library? x