Product sticking better with Acid Free Primer

[Classy Claws]

as a great fiddler and experimentor my self (only ever on my own nails) something I have found is you cant mix CND A/F Primer with Ezyflow mon's & Pols it goes yellow, also china glaze no chip top coat, turns CND nails Yellow...

I dont normally use the AF primer, but the times I have with my system I really havent seen any difference, its always very minimal lift if any regardless.

 

[IllumeGirl]

TBH i have found, since adding the step of acid primer (my system's) i have found very minimal lift..even on my problem lifters.
Acid adds a etch to the nail plate? Acid free does not? Obviously acid free appears to promise a far more gentle adhesive property to the plate,but this is getting away from the initial question.
Maybe personally speaking, my success with acid primer (loving it:lol is partly or totally due to extra focusing on every aspect of application from prep to finish.
Maybe my acid free is a placebo effect?
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but i am loving my acid primer at present.
If you did not have the rep you do (Nailzoo) then i would ramble on about too much primer etc etc affecting your adhesion...but doubt thats your prob at all...maybe your acid free is your placebo?? :idea:
If no ones lifting..then its happy days..whatever maybe used!!

 

[geeg]

TBH i have found, since adding the step of acid primer (my system's) i have found very minimal lift..even on my problem lifters.
Acid adds a etch to the nail plate? Acid free does not? Obviously acid free appears to promise a far more gentle adhesive property to the plate,but this is getting away from the initial question.
Maybe personally speaking, my success with acid primer (loving it:lol is partly or totally due to extra focusing on every aspect of application from prep to finish.
Maybe my acid free is a placebo effect?
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but i am loving my acid primer at present.
If you did not have the rep you do (Nailzoo) then i would ramble on about too much primer etc etc affecting your adhesion...but doubt thats your prob at all...maybe your acid free is your placebo?? :idea:
If no ones lifting..then its happy days..whatever maybe used!!

As the nail geek was principally set up to teach the facts, I cannot let this statement go unchallenged.

Thr above statement is not true at all.

The FACTS are that acid primer does not etch, thin, corrode or in any other way have a deliterious affect/effect on the natural nail plate. Neither acid nor non acid primer works by causing etching of the plate. Neither is acid free primer a 'more gentle' option.

Doug Schoon (world authority) will tell you how primers work in his excellent book Nail Structure & Product Chemistry.

Doug has also done extensive tests with pimers on the nail plate and has proved beyond doubt that acid primer does not etch, thin, corrode or in any other way have a deliterious affect/effect on the natural nail plate. Neither acid nor non acid primer works by causing etching of the plate. Thought I'd just repeat that for ya!

 

[IllumeGirl]

It was not a statement at all, made obvious from the question mark!
Could you make it clear,exactly what the difference is to the nail plate, in plain english for, those of us confused by acid and non acid, please?

 

[geeg]

It was not a statement at all, made obvious from the question mark!
Could you make it clear,exactly what the difference is to the nail plate, in plain english for, those of us confused by acid and non acid, please?

It was not obvious to me and maybe not to many others.

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/64763-science-question-primer.html

Recent discussion on Pimer. And I suggest a copy of the book mentioned above.

 

[sarahdae]

Yes, it seemed to me she was questioning herself wether or not the acid primer etches the nail plate. Hence the question mark.
She did not come across as making her statement a fact.

However, thanks for clarifying geeg, I think many people assume acid primer damages the nail plate more than non-acid, simply because it burns the skin.

 

[Ignatz]

There are millions of chemical acids out there, what is actually the acid that is used in primers?
How does it affect, how does a bonding agent work with or without it and, how do I know if the bonding agent actually contains it or not (=what to look for in the ingredient list)? Or is the primer (with or without that acid) essential after all?
There are systems that sell both acid and non-acid primers, how should I actually know which one I need or do I need either?

 

[nailzoo]

Just to add, the non acid primer was designed to go with the system I use, they just give a choice between the 2.

I too was initially told that primer etches the nail surface.

Then again, I've been told many things over the years.

I guess thats the reason I continually ask, listen, comment and learn.

 

[nailzoo]

Hi There!
You may be getting better results because Affixit non-acid primer

I'm not using Affixit !!

 

[AmandaJustnailz]

oops sorry about that! I'm new to this site. Your non-acid primer (which ever brand that may be) could be working better for you if you have dry nails. It's not as dehydrating. Dry/brittle nails+Acid primer can sometimes cause lifting

 

[geeg]

Some very interesting experiments were carried out and well documented some years ago by Doug Schoon.

They kept nail clippings in MAP (Methacrylic Acid Primer) for varying amounts of time including some for more than 5 years. When examined and compared to the microscopic images of the nail clippings before being immersed THERE WAS NO CHANGE TO THE STRUCTURE OF THE NAIL PLATE AT ALL. NO HOLES, NO ETCHING, NO THINNING ETC. THEY WERE COMPLETELY IN TACT AND IN FACT PRESERVED IN THE MAP.

This info is not 'pie in the sky'. I don't listen to what I am told unless the source is a world class authority or can offer me proof. Doug is and did.

 

[nailzoo]

Speaking of experiments, heres an interesting one.
Get a glass bottle (which is clean on the outside)
Put a small application of acrylic on the surface ......
Then using acid primer, apply to a patch elsewhere on the surface of the glass, (allow to dry), then apply a small application over the top of the primed patch.

After they have completely dried try and pick each application off.
See which one comes of the easiest.

 

[geeg]

Speaking of experiments, heres an interesting one.
Get a glass bottle (which is clean on the outside)
Put a small application of acrylic on the surface ......
Then using acid primer, apply to a patch elsewhere on the surface of the glass, (allow to dry), then apply a small application over the top of the primed patch.

After they have completely dried try and pick each application off.
See which one comes of the easiest.

Is this the kind of thing you do on your day off Carl?? Really darling ... you need a break!! :hug:

 

[nailpod]

Can I just ask a question as I am only just getting into a system that uses a primer - when you have changed from an acid primer to a none acid one does that product have to be from the same brand/compatible with your L&P or is this one of those things that does not matter?

Apologies if it is a stupid question :o

i find better result if you use same brand in your L&P like NSI do an acid free primer as well.

 

[Susie H]

Well having got side tracked by this thread, I wanted to look at application techniques
I have a couple of questions and a comment:lol:
On one of the links someone commented on the likely hood of knocking a bottle of primer over.
I have a square plate, bought from a pound shop that my work products sit on, and the base of my monomer glass is anchored to that plate by blue tack, I use an acid free primer and have never knocked it over but if you are concerned then the simple answer would be to use blue tack to anchor the bottle to the plate.
My questions
Gigi, in this experiment that Doug did, were the nail clippings filed first?
Would filing or removing shine or treating with cuticle remover make the nail surface more porous?
thanks Gigi
and thanks nail zoo for a great post:hug:

 

[ladygold]

I had delt w/lifting issues a while back (used only acid primer) but then experimented by doing first 2-coats Acid Primer (for dehydration), then 2-coats w/YN Protein Bond and WOW! I have very little to NO lifting now, it's Wonderful:green:

 

[geeg]

wow, that's very interesting! So why is it that if you spilled a bottle of acid primer on almost anything , including skin, it will corrode? You would think if a bottle was spilled on yourself and basically burned through your skin it would be capable of slightly etching the surface of a nail plate. MAP primer can be dangerous, this is why most brands have switched to a primer pen. I am really curious about this now! If MAP does not etch the natural nail plate what does is it do (besides deyhdrate)?
Amanda

Any chemical in the world is potentially dangerous .. even water ...

The reason companies stopped using Acid Primer was not because it was any more dangerous than any other chemical product. It was because someone sued a company because their child got hold of some MAP and drank it and everyone was nervous for a while and MAP became difficult and expensive for the nail manufacturers to get hold of for a while. Plenty of companies still use MAP and it is available again now.

MAP does not corrode the skin!! It irritates it and some may feel a mild burning sensation if it is not removed from the skin. It certainly does not burn through it!! Good lord.

Keratin is pretty tough stuff and MAP is not strong enough of an acid to have an etching or corroding effect on it. For a complete explanation I suggest you buy Nail Structure and Product Chemistry by Doug Schoon.

 

[g5m_sh]

Sorry to sway this thread! I just want to ask a question (if anyone knows the answer):green:

I don't use primer, never have, never needed it!

I know some people that use a different brand than i do (for L&P) and they use primer all the time...

The question i want to ask is - with some brands, do you HAVE to use primer so you get no lifting???

 

[geeg]

Sorry to sway this thread! I just want to ask a question (if anyone knows the answer):green:

I don't use primer, never have, never needed it!

I know some people that use a different brand than i do (for L&P) and they use primer all the time...

The question i want to ask is - with some brands, do you HAVE to use primer so you get no lifting???

Yes.

 

[angel fingers]

i personally use an acid free primer.

can i ask about m.a.p
what proportion of it is methacrylic acid.
is it 100% pure or are there other ingredients.
does it vary between brands. and does it work better/differently if it is more concentrated.
just interested, i like the whole chemistry side of things.