Science Question - Primer

[jax]

Hi Geeks

I meant to post a few questions about Primers on the SSW Science weekend but I forgot in the end........probably got too carried away with the 'oil drying enamel' debate!! :lol:LOL.
Anyway another thread in the forum brought it all back and I feel it is time for me to urgently brush up on the subject. Any knowledge you could add would be gratefully received.

PRIMER
the only thing I think I know is that it converts the bonding acrylic from being a hydrogen to a covalent bond (or maybe the other way around?). Apart from that I know nothing and I dont really even understand what I just wrote.......covalent bond???

What is Primer? How does it work? what is the difference between acid free and normal primer? Is it super toxic? Why does the nail plate go chalky after application? Why sometimes does it not go chalky?

As usual, feel free to get technical...or not

jax.xx

ps. I'm sure my Creative notes would help me but they are currently unobtainable (bottom of very messy hall cupboard which I cant face tidying)

 

[ValencianNails]

http://www.creativenaildesign.com/Tools-Support/PDF/Product-Profiles/PP-Acid-Free-Primer.pdf

hth's a bit

 

[*JOANNE*]

Hi Geeks

I meant to post a few questions about Primers on the SSW Science weekend but I forgot in the end........probably got too carried away with the 'oil drying enamel' debate!! :lol:LOL.
Anyway another thread in the forum brought it all back and I feel it is time for me to urgently brush up on the subject. Any knowledge you could add would be gratefully received.

PRIMER
the only thing I think I know is that it converts the bonding acrylic from being a hydrogen to a covalent bond (or maybe the other way around?). Apart from that I know nothing and I dont really even understand what I just wrote.......covalent bond???

What is Primer? How does it work? what is the difference between acid free and normal primer? Is it super toxic? Why does the nail plate go chalky after application? Why sometimes does it not go chalky?

As usual, feel free to get technical...or not

jax.xx

ps. I'm sure my Creative notes would help me but they are currently unobtainable (bottom of very messy hall cupboard which I cant face tidying)

primers are wetting agents....as in they make a liquid more conpatable with a solid.....like priming newly plastered walls before painting etc.....they act as an anchor between the product and the natural nail....again like plastered walls.....primer....paint....stops the paint peeling.
acid based contains methacrylic acid.......non acid primers do have an acid but methacrylic acid..the acid it conatins is less corrosive.
primers create hydrogen bonds which improves adhesion between the product and natural nail...these are only temporary...like the hydrogen bonds we have in hair that can be temporarily changed.
acid based primers are more corrosive and should not get on any surrounding skin and you shouldnt put product over primer that hasnt fully dried...this can lead to lots of problems too..........if used properly....they are perfectly ok......
hope i have got most of the info right lol

 

[jax]

Thanks Joanne.

Something else I am wondering is this;
If a system is 'primerless' like Creative Retention plus and EZ Flow High Definition, that would indicate that the system already has a hydrogen bond. So why would applying primer as is sometimes advised be any help at all? Can you make a hydrogen bond stronger by adding primer?

 

[ValencianNails]

Thanks Joanne.

Something else I am wondering is this;
If a system is 'primerless' like Creative Retention plus and EZ Flow High Definition, that would indicate that the system already has a hydrogen bond. So why would applying primer as is sometimes advised be any help at all? Can you make a hydrogen bond stronger by adding primer?

Retention+ forms a covalent bond, which is stronger than a hydrogen bond.

I don't have time to look for the link now as I'm off to work in a sec, but Cathie! did a thread about covalent bond vs hydrogen bond a while back.

hth's

 

[jax]

Retention+ forms a covalent bond, which is stronger than a hydrogen bond.

I don't have time to look for the link now as I'm off to work in a sec, but Cathie! did a thread about covalent bond vs hydrogen bond a while back.

hth's

Thanks Sandi, I'll have a look for it. I thought I might have got my bonds around the wrong way!

 

[ValencianNails]

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/58498-q-bonds.html

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/57570-bond-james-how-does-break.html

hth's

 

[jax]

I have read everything I can on here and google about Primer but there are a couple of things I still cant get my head round.

If a primer 'upgrades' the bond between Acrylic and the Natural Nail, I presume this would only be for Hydrogen bonding systems like CND Radical. I was taught and have since had this re-inforced that although it is not necessary to use primer on primerless systems (which use a covalent bond) it is a fail safe and is a reasonable thing to do. Rightly or wrongly I currently use a primer with my primerless system.

BUT....giving this a bit more thought. If you are using primer on Ret+ for example or EZFlow HD then is using the primer not a waste of time? Because this system already has a Covalent bond so you cannot upgrade the bond above that and I cant imagine that the primer could make the covalent bond stronger than it already is??? I am starting to think the only benefit I am getting to using primer is that it contains a bit of alcohol which would further dehydrate the nail plate before I apply my acrylic. Apart from that is it not useless?

If this is true I am taking an unnecessary risk using it.

Any thoughts?

 

[Denmark]

In the Nail Olympia show last year, Ketan Patel, said that it was not a good idea to use primer with Retention+, if you wanted a stronger bind to the natural nail then you should use a PREP BUSTER insted...

 

[Nail Perfection]

By "Prep buster" do you mean scrubfresh or the likes?

 

[Vetty]

By "Prep buster" do you mean scrubfresh or the likes?

It's actually Prep Boosters(!) and generally (in CND terms) we're talking about Nail Fresh as an extra level of dehydration - don't forget to re-scrubfresh afterwards though to get those pathogen fighters back.....

 

[Denmark]

It's actually Prep Boosters(!) and generally (in CND terms) we're talking about Nail Fresh as an extra level of dehydration - don't forget to re-scrubfresh afterwards though to get those pathogen fighters back.....

Yes just like Vetty says BOOSTER, sorry for my bad english :lol:

 

[Vetty]

sorry for my bad english :lol:

Hey, it's better than my Danish!!!!! We knew what you meant and that's the main thing

 

[Classy Claws]

Strange thing is the actual CND tech sheet for the AFP states it can be used with both Rad and Ret+ ... go figure.

 

[Cathie!]

Bonds (Izzi put your Brass Band away!).

Acid primers create a hydrogen bond between the nail plate and the primer and a covalent bond between the primer and the product.

Non-acid primers create a covalent bond between both parties.

Primer can help the bond of a primerless system if your prep isn't perfect, also primerless system require that you press the product into the nail to create the covalent bond between the nail plate and the product as there is nothing in between to help create the bond.

When using acid primer....use as little as possible, always drain the brush of product before applying to the natural nail only.

Never hold your primer bottle the same way you would hold a bottle when applying polish, keep the bottle right out of the way....I always put it away to the right of my working area with the lid (child proof) back on.

Acid primer is very safe when used in well trained hands.

 

[The Geek]

Hey Guys, great discussion and some great info. Just wanted to chime in with a couple things:

Just because a product is primer less, doesn't mean that it forms a covalent bond. The strongest type of bond you can expect from acidic primers (and most acid free primers) is a hydrogen bond.

A good example is Radical. It is primer optional and in the UK the vast majority of professionals never used primers with great results. They achieved great adhesion from a great prep routine and a product that was naturally attracted to the nail plate. Though not covalent bonding, it is still primer less and it still sticks like my eggs to the frying pan on a Sunday morning (which is to say that it sticks almost too well!).

However Retention+ came along and introduced a patented covalent bonding technology that meant you could achieve a substantially stronger bond using no primer at all as long as the plate was properly prepped. Acid Free Primer came along to lend that covalent bonding technology to Radical. Think of Acid Free Primer as Retention+'s adhesion in a bottle to enable Radical to have the same level of permanent adhesion.

Why would you use Acid Free Primer with Retention+ then? In many cases it may not make a difference, however in some cases, it can help pre-wet the surface of the nail plate making Retention+ naturally more attracted to the nail plate. That is because like surfaces attract! Acid Free Primer will wet the surface of the plate much more effectively than Retention+ by itself. Therefore you can get better coverage if you need it.

Where it won't help is when lifting is not a result of poor wetting and coverage, but because there is still oil or moisture on the plate.

Most primers are acid based (even many that claim to be acid-free) which helps remove oil and moisture from the plate when it isn't prepped properly to begin with. The acid often will be used as a lazy prep tool (hence why so many budget salons use mass amounts of it instead of simply prepping the nail). If it is being used as a lazy techs cleansing tool, then if you remove the step from the technicians process, they will inevitably still leave oil and shtuff on the plate which no amount of Retention+ will stick to.

So in a nutshell, primer less doesn't mean covalent, acid free doesn't mean acid-less (or hydrogen bonding) and my eggs suck on a Sunday morning!

HTHs!

 

[Cathie!]

Well I thought I'd cracked it....back to the thinking cap or frying pan.

 

[The Geek]

Hey Cathie

I thought you pretty much nailed it - the only clarification was that not all acid free primers give covalent bonds. You also dont really need to 'squish' product to the nail regardless of if the system is primerless or not as it wont really make or break the adhesion. What pressing does is help to eliminate bubbles which is good regardless of the type of system you use!

Anyhoo, these are pretty common misconceptions - your other info was great!

 

[jax]

Thanks for all that info GMG and Cathie, I love this place for exactly that reason!
Things are defo getting clearer for me on the Primer front. I primarily use primer as well as CND prep routine to provide an extra level of adhesion. Belt and braces as I've heard it being referred to. Interesting point about not all primerless systems being covalent bonding......must check mine.

I suppose the recent threads on primer have scared me a little. It seems likely to me that at some point in my career I will spill a bottle of primer. The size and shape of the bottle makes it very easy to tip over and because it is used on every client, chances are at some point it will happen. I'm guessing that every nail tech who regularly uses primer over a period of time would have a spill at some point.
It might just spill on the table or it might land on me but even worse it might land on my client.

What if it lands on a clients jeans for example? What do you do in this situation? Will primer burn every skin type or is it just whether someone is prone to being sensitive to this chemical? Is Primer the most potentially hazardous substance nail techs use? ie, is there any history of Monomer causing these kinds of burns when spilled? What does acid-free primer mean? Is it less potentially hazardous?

Just to add a final point. I find the bottles primer comes in an accident waiting to happen. They are so light and fiddly and can knock over so easily.......or am I just a bit giddy:lol:!! Thankfully the lid has always been on..so far.

 

[Cathie!]

If you use it correctly, the primer and bottle shouldn'y be fiddly, I have never found it that way (I can see left handers finding it fiddly)....use it sparingly as you have been taught and straight after use put the top back on.

I've never ever spilt any primer on either myself or a client and I hope I never will...the bottle is open for no more that 7 seconds (to be precise lol)....maybe in earthquake conditions I may be unlucky!

I love that word, fiddly, my daughter uses it all the time :hug: