Working illegally

[lisa.sharrock]

"The problem is that there everywhere ! I had one girl steal contents from my site and fb page frm pics to prices! I rang the tax office who couldn't tell me if her business was registered but gave them details as she wasn't paying any tax!

She rang up me up being nasty threatened to burn my house down lol"

And this is exactly why I wouldn't do anything like this!

And how do you know she isn't looney tunes? This is how vendettas happen and this is exactly why I wouldnt get involved in anything like this. Like the poster on page 1 (sorry I've forgotten your name), I keep my head down and just get on with MY life, I'm not bothered by what anybody else does nor would I want to risk any repercusions, there are too many bitter, twisted people in this world.

I just think that you have to be 100% of the facts before you go in and report people as the consequences of your actions could be life changing for all involved and in many cases sometimes people are falsely accused and found to be telling the truth or not acting illegally.

 

[daisyl]

Smooth, in our profession we are just as accountable for our omissions as our actions, therefore, in accordance with our code of conduct you have a duty to report them if you have evidence that the public are at risk.

I know its a real tough one. Happens a lot in our industy doesn't it? I wasn't that impressed with the TV documentary either. Then again, I could have predicted as much.

 

[BotoxBoy]

I thought that documentary was disappointing!

The presenter did not challenge the mother enough about paying for a 15 year old to have botox! Saying 'teenagers will carry on demanding things'... What if she asked for heroin?!

Anyways... Illegal working; if you know someone is at risk of harm etc then report. If people are avoiding tax etc then I'm sure it will catch up with them eventually as the tax system is more and more sophisticated.

As for the other issues, I suspect the new NMC guidance will put off many nurses coming into the business and will make it much harder for those trying to bend the rules to continue and result in much safer treatments for patients which can only be a good thing x

 

[PEPSIMAX]

Hi Smooth, where is this person getting her botox? I'm guessing this is about the BT who is still administering botox. If you report her she hasn't got that much to lose, the police are not in my experience bothered about this sort of crime. She can't get struck off the NMC register etc... she isn't on it. She clearly isn't worried if she is blatantly carrying on despite being warned already. Who prescribes her botox? I would go directly to them and tell them you know what they are doing and if they carry on you will report them for acting outside professional guidelines and breaking the law. At least this person should be concerned that they may get in trouble with their own regulatory body. Good luck whatever you do x

 

[lady R]

i too live in the noth west and have just found out some thing very similar happening very close to me. I know this BT is administering botox but have no idea who to report to.

i have had many poor souls come to me with horror stories of near death experiences with illegal / imitation botox so when i find out how to report her, believe me i will!!!

I wonder if its the same person!?

 

[smooth]

You're all right, I once heard this lady in tesco say to her colleague that a guy had just walked out with a huge box of beer without paying, she said it wasn't her responsibility to stop them and if the security didn't see it then that's their problem!

Well yes we all report this person and what happens? They bad mouth you and make up stories about you don't they? I have actually reported them, just wondered what everyone else would do.

The documentary was terrible, it could have been more informative rather than just reporting the bad in the industry with the exception of Nik Lowe of course! Did you notice how the presenter came out of the room with swelling in her glabella region? ha ha. There is another one now, again focusing on nurses losing their registration, I just don't understand why they are focusing on NMC registrants when non NMC registrants have to face the law too and if they administer botox they can very easily break the law. At least it is now in black and white that patients need to have a face to face consultation with their prescriber prior to botox being administered. Stand back whilst the nurses book onto a prescribing course and doctors stopping their prescribing to beauty therapists.

 

[botox girl]

Absolutely agree with you all with regards to this person needing reporting, as they have slipped back into flouting the law habitually I wonder what will have to happen to them to sit up and actually take notice?

Can I ask... what would anyone reading do if you knew of a nurse who was training BT, no consultation with a Dr, obviously getting product and adding her bit of profit to the products. Is this against regulations and guidelines? Should I she be reported?

What can you advise?

 

[BotoxBoy]

Hey Botox girl... This certainly would be illegal unless the nurse is a prescriber and is physically supervising the BT?

 

[BRH]

You're all right, I once heard this lady in tesco say to her colleague that a guy had just walked out with a huge box of beer without paying, she said it wasn't her responsibility to stop them and if the security didn't see it then that's their problem!

Well yes we all report this person and what happens? They bad mouth you and make up stories about you don't they? I have actually reported them, just wondered what everyone else would do.

The documentary was terrible, it could have been more informative rather than just reporting the bad in the industry with the exception of Nik Lowe of course! Did you notice how the presenter came out of the room with swelling in her glabella region? ha ha. There is another one now, again focusing on nurses losing their registration, I just don't understand why they are focusing on NMC registrants when non NMC registrants have to face the law too and if they administer botox they can very easily break the law. At least it is now in black and white that patients need to have a face to face consultation with their prescriber prior to botox being administered. Stand back whilst the nurses book onto a prescribing course and doctors stopping their prescribing to beauty therapists.

I also know of a similar situation, nurse not doing face to face consultations and training BT's (I just quote whats been said before which is the LEGAL stance for you nurses out there). This woman's even linked to Dr Brain Franks who supports the 'treaments you can trust cause'! BT's and botox cant be all that bad when medics are training them?

So as botox girl asked; would any nurses out there report them?

 

[botox girl]

Hey Botox girl... This certainly would be illegal unless the nurse is a prescriber and is physically supervising the BT?

Ok, heres a question for the medics out there?
If the nurse is a prescriber but is teaching both nurses and BT's (supervising them during training) but then offering remote prescribing services after their training is this against guidelines? The remote prescribing consists of no consultations ie face to face or phone calls, she asks for photographs as evidence and their client med history faxed through to her. Prescriptions are done through a well known pharmacy in her name then she sells on the botox/fillers etc to the nurses/BT's for a profit, Ive seen hard evidence on this. I believe this to be wholesaling and also illegal?
She obviously knows she is in the wrong as she's also very active in giving her opinion on this issue but then takes the money in training thoses she is trying to stop!
Where do I go from here! I believe she's in BIG trouble.

 

[BotoxBoy]

This is absolutely illegal! All the governing bodies state the consultation MUST be face to face.

 

[botox girl]

I have a friend who trained with this company and this vile nurse - its the Academy of Cosmetic Training, Im not sure if anyone has heard of them or her. OMG she has so much evidence against this person its unreal and I mean hard facts, paperwork etc! Botox Boy - where does she go from here? How does she report whats happened, is it via the NMC?
Im so fed up of hearing about what's right and wrong on this site and one sided biased opinions from certain people!

 

[Daisy_Hill]

I'm disgusted by how many people think it's alright to turn a blind eye to crime. We all pay for it in the end, by higher prices or higher insurance premiums or an inability to obtain services or just an unpleasant society where people think stealing stuff is alright if you are hard up or nobody in authority sees you. And when somebody is putting the health of clients at risk then they absolutely need to be reported and shut down. This is not something that should be up for debate.

 

[Pinkbunny28]

Botox Boy - where does she go from here? How does she report whats happened, is it via the NMC?
Im so fed up of hearing about what's right and wrong on this site and one sided biased opinions from certain people!

I know this isn't aimed at me but as my mum is registered with the nmc I believe you can just get into contact with them via phone, say you would like to make a complaint about an nmc member as you have significant evidence of them breaking their right to practice contract. Hth and I might be wrong so don't listen to me completely lol x

 

[BotoxBoy]

Ok, I've been thinking about this today and I'm still not sure what the right form of action is.

Part of me thinks that is it the right thing for someone to go around reporting people?

If there was evidence of harm being caused to someone then there would be no problem. However, the issue you discuss is a little more complicated.

It is clearly illegal to prescribe or administer botox remotely. The NMC and GMC and MHRA are explicitly clear on this. However, the person doing this is taking a personal risk and in the event of something going wrong would not be covered by any insurance policy.

How do you know they are doing all this illegally etc? Are you 100% certain?

I tend to think that everybody at times in their life has done something wrong or even illegal but if someone was there reporting everybody all the time it would be a boring and a difficult world. I'm not excusing the activity of someone illegally handling the botox prescription process so please don't think that I am.

However, I just wonder if it is the right of the person in question to be the reporter? I'm a big believer in 'those without sin cast the first stone'. Also, I'm sure with the way things have clamped down like the NMC and pharmacies etc then it will eventually prevent people from doing remote prescribing.

Sometimes I think it's best to let people get on with what they are doing, like the phrase 'give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves'.

You seem very close to the situation and I'm not sure what the motivation is to be the reporter or the person doing the right thing all the time etc but sometimes its easier just to back off and not get involved.

The worst possible thing would to report someone who has actually not done anything illegal and then they are subjected to an investigation which may end their career even if they are not guilty. Therefore I think you would need to be 110% sure they were acting illegally and unless you were working with them directly how could you know?

I don't think I've made my points particularly well but I hope you can see where I am coming from?

x

 

[BotoxBoy]

I'm disgusted by how many people think it's alright to turn a blind eye to crime. We all pay for it in the end, by higher prices or higher insurance premiums or an inability to obtain services or just an unpleasant society where people think stealing stuff is alright if you are hard up or nobody in authority sees you. And when somebody is putting the health of clients at risk then they absolutely need to be reported and shut down. This is not something that should be up for debate.

In response to this, if everyone reported every single crime then the world would be a pretty rubbish place...where do you stop? people stopping on a yellow box junction, somebody going 1mph over the speed limit? accidentally bringing a pen home from the office and reporting theft?

You need to have pretty clear evidence of the 'clients at risk' before I think it's reasonable to report someone!

 

[smooth]

This is absolutely illegal! All the governing bodies state the consultation MUST be face to face.

If you are an NMC member who is not a prescriber it must be a face to face consultation, otherwise it is against guidelines but if you are a prescriber not so, as you can prescribe remotely in certain circumstances, this is documented in their prescribing guidelines. Legally you can do non face to face prescribing in accordance with medicines and healthcare regulatory authority, however it is down to the governing body at the end of the day. If it is a non prescribing nurse administering botox from a remote prescription then this is against NMC guidelines and needs to be reported. If an nurse, doctor or dentist who was only remote prescribing as a routine method then it is against guidelines for all of them as it should only be used either from time to time and in exceptional circumstances.

I'm disgusted by how many people think it's alright to turn a blind eye to crime. We all pay for it in the end, by higher prices or higher insurance premiums or an inability to obtain services or just an unpleasant society where people think stealing stuff is alright if you are hard up or nobody in authority sees you. And when somebody is putting the health of clients at risk then they absolutely need to be reported and shut down. This is not something that should be up for debate.

It's the same with car insurance, you don't have an accident but at the end of the year, your insurance goes up, mine went up byu £140 this year and I've not had a claim!!!!! As an injector it is up to YOU to make sure you comply with the law regardless of what the prescriber says.

I know this isn't aimed at me but as my mum is registered with the nmc I believe you can just get into contact with them via phone, say you would like to make a complaint about an nmc member as you have significant evidence of them breaking their right to practice contract. Hth and I might be wrong so don't listen to me completely lol x

Yes you can, you need to have proof of them breaking guidelines or else it would potentiallly be seen as malicious reporting. It would have to be written complaint and it would be sent to that person so they can answer your allegations. In what you speak of you would need to be 100% certain and have proof that this NMC member has been presribing for you. Do you have the prescription with their name on it? If so then that is your starting point, if not then I struggle to see how you can make a complaint. I have just been speaking to the police about a harrassment case and it is the same there. All I can say is get proof of the prescribing, will have to be written confirmation, and then you have it nailed. But you would then also need to prove that it compromised patient safety, was someone injured as a result of this action? My thoughts are that if is wasn't face to face, you would be breaking the law in some way if you were coming up with the dosage? It's the same with non prescribing nurses who tell the doctor what they are going to inject, they are then making a prescribing decision which they cannot do.

Message me if you need clarification in any way?

 

[botox-me]

It is clearly illegal to prescribe or administer botox remotely. The NMC and GMC and MHRA are explicitly clear on this. However, the person doing this is taking a personal risk and in the event of something going wrong would not be covered by any insurance policy.

How do you know they are doing all this illegally etc? Are you 100% certain?

Also, I'm sure with the way things have clamped down like the NMC and pharmacies etc then it will eventually prevent people from doing remote prescribing.

The worst possible thing would to report someone who has actually not done anything illegal and then they are subjected to an investigation which may end their career even if they are not guilty. Therefore I think you would need to be 110% sure they were acting illegally and unless you were working with them directly how could you know?


x

You have made some good points here. Medico legal is very strict and not 100% easy to deal with, you know the 3 things you need to prove and 2 of them are almost always easy but the third can be nigh on impossible to prove. In the case of prescribing, there is a well known doctor who is having his prescribing activities looked into as every prescription he writes is a remote one which the GMC do not state should happen all the time.

So any prescriber out there who remotely prescribes as a general rule for every non prescribing injector could have it proven that they are not adheringto their professional standards. However, if they write face to face prescriptions on a daily basis and remote prescriptions are the exception in their prescription pad then how are they going against guidelines?

I must say thought that it is not illegal to remotely prescribe botox, this is stated in the MHRA website that you quote. There are certainly pharmacies out there who are not dispensing from remote prescriptions so all nurses are advised to get a prescribing qualification.

The last paragraph is a very good point, as they couldn't be sure, however, if there is no evidence there will be no comeback surely and if there is any vendetta between the reporter and the reported person this willl be made known and the one with the loose tongue would certainly have egg on their face dont' you think?

 

[topcuts]

hi,. i know 2 people working "illegally" - 1 from home, no insurance etc and i have been tempted but dont as they have another baby on the way and the other i know is embezzling equipment and product from the wholesaler she works at and selling at inflated price on internet. Because she let me down so many times I just had a word in a colleagues ear and have done nothing else but hopefully set the ball rolling.

like others have said, we dont know what you mean by illegally but i absolutely hate tax evaders. my tax return was submitted in june (very early) as i hate the worry. i put money away and because of this i pay my mortgage out of my overdraft as i cant afford to pay myself. i do everything by the book so no staff can have a thing on/against me but would i grass? i too am a coward and sometimes seeth for fear of backlash so again, depends on case

no help at all though am i!

 

[botox girl]

Yes you can, you need to have proof of them breaking guidelines or else it would potentiallly be seen as malicious reporting. It would have to be written complaint and it would be sent to that person so they can answer your allegations. In what you speak of you would need to be 100% certain and have proof that this NMC member has been presribing for you. Do you have the prescription with their name on it? If so then that is your starting point, if not then I struggle to see how you can make a complaint. I have just been speaking to the police about a harrassment case and it is the same there. All I can say is get proof of the prescribing, will have to be written confirmation, and then you have it nailed. But you would then also need to prove that it compromised patient safety, was someone injured as a result of this action? My thoughts are that if is wasn't face to face, you would be breaking the law in some way if you were coming up with the dosage? It's the same with non prescribing nurses who tell the doctor what they are going to inject, they are then making a prescribing decision which they cannot do.

There is another beauty forum where its all kicked off as therapist who have trained with this company and this dispicable nurse have been asked to submit evidence of potential bad practice. The evidence is pretty astounding against this woman. Yes there is 100% hard evidence of whats been going on with this company. It could be the test case that everyones looking for! JA