Microdrmabrasion if client has botox?

[swilks12]

Am I right in thinking that if a client has had botox (feb) this would be a contraindication to microdermabrasion?

Thanks

 

[beauty4you]

You can not have botox for 48 hours after a MD treatment and do not perform a treatment for 2 weeks after botox as far as I know.

hth

Cath

 

[Lynne Baker]

Check with the manufacturer of your machine. I have the Novita dual machine and I can't MDA over a botoxed area for at least 3 weeks, and never over a collagened area.

 

[spoilt]

i know if you have botox in an area u cant hace electrinic face lifts , stimulation on th area ie forehead and eyes.... u have to miss them bist out.... not sure about dermabrasion. have a look here www.charmaine.me qualifed rgn as her she does all those treatments x

 

[Velveteen]

It's not a contraindication.

Often both procedures are done together as the view is that it produces a better result than doing the two separately.

 

[Lynne Baker]

If you microderm over freshly injected botox you run the risk of moving the botox under the skin.

 

[Velveteen]

Well if the injection was dodgy and/or you exacted pressure over the site and/or physically manipulated the flesh I can imagine why there'd be a risk of movement.

Microdermabrasion and Botox treatments carried out concurrently are not new. They've been done for quite a while and with much success and in some medi-clinics are the preferred method. However it doesn't matter what I think or have experienced. Microdermabrasion is not seen as a contraindication for Botox so I've answered the question.

 

[oldgaltherapist]

I don't microderm until at least 2-3 weeks after injection as it takes up to 10 days for the muscles to freeze, same with fillers, all has to settle etc.

 

[Velveteen]

as it takes up to 10 days for the muscles to freeze

That's actually not true.

BUT...we've been through this before, I've explained it 'til I'm blue in the face and it's been done to death.
Another reason why I only use medical practitioners for Botox administration.

 

[oldgaltherapist]

Well that told me in a colleague friendly way.......

I must apologise for getting my terminology mixed up, meant one thing wrote another! I did mean relaxes muscles....

I agree that only medical trained practitioners should do wrinkle relaxing tx, not sure if I suggested I was administrating it?

I would not normally have bothered to respond but.............

 

[anna2010]

You can have MDA immediately before botox but you shouldn't have it for 2 weeks after in case you move it and increase the risk of brow or lid droop

 

[Velveteen]

Well that told me in a colleague friendly way.......

Please excuse me if my response sounded abrasive, Oldgal. I did not mean to sound dismissive. Working on a forum with just text can give off an unintended impression. :hug:Anna, Botox is usually administered first and the microdermabrasion follows. Although I can appreciate that different medi-clinics may vary the application.Brow and lid drop is primarily an injection issue and is not impacted at all by dermabrasion.

 

[smooth]

Moving botox is not only due to a dodgy injection it can be moved by the client and facials. If you MDA over an area that has just been injected the pressure of such treatment will increase the risk of moving the product, this is why you would MDA first and then get the injection. After you have had botox I would wait until the product has worked (which can be between 2 days and 2 weeks) before you have an MDA done. Some people recommend you don't have the lifting technique done with the facial but I can't see how this will affect the botox as this toxin works within the nerve axon by blocking the release of achetylcholine across the synaptic space.

 

[essentia]

I was told by my non surgical face lifting company that facial lifting using micro and nano current must not be carried out if the client has Botox. I presume this is because the nerves and muscles are stimulated?

 

[smooth]

I was told by my non surgical face lifting company that facial lifting using micro and nano current must not be carried out if the client has Botox. I presume this is because the nerves and muscles are stimulated?

These treatments serve to attempt to stimulate muscular contraction in an attempt to firm up the area. However, to obtain a muscular contraction the brain needs to send a signal to the muscle. This is done via a neurotransmitter called acheylcholine (Ach). Ach is contained within vessicles inside the axon that get released from ion channels across the synaptic space to fire the signal to the muscle.

If Ach is not released then the muscle cannot contract, if you try to electrically stimulate the muscle nothing will happen as the SNAP 25 is cleaved making it impossible for the Ach to release across to the muscle.

If you do a facial within days of having botox you can move the product to cause a ptosis (droop). So what the company are saying is incorrect but they are saying it as they do not know that much about it and it is better to say don't do it rather than do it and face repercussions if that makes sense?

 

[essentia]

I do not profess to be a wizz at biology but I thought tests in rats injected with Botulinum showed that cleaved SNAP 25 could innervate muscles even 24hrs later and be present even 2 months later. Could it also depend on the dosage given? I think I will still avoid Botox clients as it is better to be safe.:hug:

 

[smooth]

I do not profess to be a wizz at biology but I thought tests in rats injected with Botulinum showed that cleaved SNAP 25 could innervate muscles even 24hrs later and be present even 2 months later. Could it also depend on the dosage given? I think I will still avoid Botox clients as it is better to be safe.:hug:

When the toxin starts to wear off it is because your parent terminal sprouts new nerve endings which will sit on the muscle to release Ach. When the parent terminal becomes active again the new sprouts will subsequently retract.

I went on an anatomy masterclass where we went to the lab and saw the boffins show presentations on what they do with the botulinum molecule. Andy Picket was also there so very much the brains of Britain and France in one handy session. They all agreed that they don't know exactly how botox works but this is the given fact and seems to be unanimous. The use of innervate in that sentence above didn't make sense to me sorry but I think what you are trying to say is that the SNAP 25 will supply something (do you mean Ach) to the muscle???? Once the proteins in the snare complex are cleaved they are cleaved and until the neurotransmitter can release across the synaptic space again the muscle will not move.

I would not worry too much about rats, they also said that they found the toxin going to the brain in rats but this has not been repeated which a valid study should be able to do.

Absolutely though, MDA before botox or at least a couple of weeks afterwards as in some clients it does take quite a long time to be fully effective.

 

[essentia]

As far as I understand it Botox blocks signals so the proteins (of which one is SNAP 25) that release acetylcholine prevents muscle contraction. I read somewhere that lab rats after being dosed with Botox, electrical stimulation (innervation) of muscle tissue was still possible an hour and even 2 months later. You mentioned that this could not happen? I was thinking about this in relation to non surgical face lifting using micro and nano current. The company who supplied my machine does not recommend it when clients have had Botox.

 

[smooth]

As far as I understand it Botox blocks signals so the proteins (of which one is SNAP 25) that release acetylcholine prevents muscle contraction. I read somewhere that lab rats after being dosed with Botox, electrical stimulation (innervation) of muscle tissue was still possible an hour and even 2 months later. You mentioned that this could not happen? I was thinking about this in relation to non surgical face lifting using micro and nano current. The company who supplied my machine does not recommend it when clients have had Botox.

I don't know where you have read this, but this is incorrect. There are 4 proteins in the snare complex; 2 x SNAP 25, 1 x synaptobrevin and 1 x syntaxin 1. Proteins do not "release" Ach, Ach is contained in vessicles and the vessicles release Ach which then travel through the nerve axon membrane through ion channels. Once through the ion channels the Ach (a neurotransmitter) crosses the synaptic space and causes the muscle to contract. Without this neurotransmitter the brain cannot send the signal to the muscle to cause it to move. Yes cleaving SNAP 25 blocks the release of Ach but it does this by not allowing the Ach to "connect" for want of a better word, with the ion channels to pass through them.

Like I said before, don't worry too much about rat studies, often they are not valid. What causes the body to contract the muscle is the neurotransmitter, if you stimulate the muscle through false media any movement obtained will not suddenly stop the botox from working! What negates the effect of the muscle is the body growing new nerve endings to release Ach.

The reason beauty companies do not recommend such treatment be combined with botox is that they do not have the knowledge to such a depth where they can truly say. With anything if you do not know it is safer to say do not treat. I have not come across any studies that have written to say that the likes of caci etc will negate any toxin injectables. Purely we only state to not have any facials etc for 2 weeks after treatment but this is to prevent the therapist from spreading the toxin to an area where it can lead to a ptosis.

Now, despite what you might have read I have been teaching advanced procedures to doctors for many years now and it is my job to know the ins and outs of botox. I have tried to use layman's terms on here as I don't know who the reader is. I regularly update my knowledge and as I said before I attended an anatomy masterclass which included cadavar disection and sessions with botox boffins from the UK and France.
x

 

[daisyl]

Smooth - you are talking about NICE training with Galderma. When did you go? I was there last year. Very informative, particularly Andy Pickett lectures (he has no vested interest).

The rats studies are not relevant to cosmetic botulinum (botox) use. They do not relate - completely differing type of botulinum (there are many), hugely increased doses (1000x), non pharmaceutical grade. In other words its like saying you will never take a paracetamol tablet because they are extremely toxic - potentially lethal, even in very small quantities exceeding the recommended dose. It needs to be put in context.